Canadian Heritage Committee on Sept. 20th, 2017

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Definitely decentralize as much as possible, bring in experts to explain what is currently happening in Canada and to talk about best practices, and make professional resources available to the general public so they can privately call and seek expert advice on how to proceed with young persons who are changing their behaviour and maybe radicalizing themselves.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

This I gather should be a national strategy, right?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Correct.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

It should be for communities across the country, not just in Quebec, and it should contain the approaches and resources necessary to get the job done.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Absolutely, but we need to work on two fronts. We need to have a consistent message across the country. We need to work within the community and to find capable leaders. We need Imams who understand. We currently have a problem. We have people who went to Syria and are starting to come back to Canada. They witnessed fighting, and they might have been trained. They might even still have the idea of hurting us. If an Imam discovered somebody like this, would the Imam be prepared to tackle the issue of deradicalization? I don't think so. We need to speak to more of these people, to work closer with the community. We need to work on two levels: a cross-Canada program, but decentralized and brought to the ground level as much as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Juneau-Katsuya.

We are now going to Ms. Dhillon from the Liberals for seven minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you for being here today.

Mrs. Chair, I'll share my speaking time with Mr. Virani.

My questions are for Mr. Juneau-Katsuya. Has there been an increase in violence and hate toward Muslims in Canada, and especially in Quebec?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Yes. There has been an increase in Quebec and in Canada. The statistics are clear in this regard. Obviously, the spikes have been more significant when attacks have occurred.

Discontent and insecurity are starting to become prevalent and omnipresent in all classes of society. They emerge at various levels, such as when a person insults a woman who is wearing a head scarf, writes graffiti on walls, or worse, launches an attack like the one in Quebec City.

I've been working in investigations for 40 years. I'm an experienced investigator. I find it absurd that the Quebec City police haven't yet been able to control the security issue surrounding the mosque. A few weeks ago, we heard about the torching of the Quebec City mosque president's car. The mosque has been targeted for years. Why have the Quebec City police not yet been able to make a single arrest?

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

What are the reasons for this?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

We need to start asking ourselves questions. Without saying that it's the answer, I think we could start asking ourselves questions about the systemic racism in our society. There's also the fact that this matter doesn't necessarily interest the police.

When a mayor doesn't even acknowledge that the attack in Quebec City was terrorism, there's a problem. When the director of the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence in Montreal clearly states that Quebec is the second location in Canada from where he receives the most calls about radicalization, but the mayor says he doesn't need an office for the centre in his city, there's a problem.

It's a bit like a shameful family secret. There's something we don't want to say or admit. As long as we can forget about it or slip it under the rug, we act as though it doesn't exist. Unfortunately, this phenomenon exists and the evidence is bloody.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

In recent years, has racial profiling by airport authorities or police forces increased? I'm talking about the procedure that enables the authorities to stop and frisk people.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Racial profiling is always a very sensitive issue for investigators.

The investigators use indicators. I'll provide a completely different example. I'm working on a drug case and I must catch drug smugglers. Obviously, some countries are more likely than others to export drugs. Can I be accused of racial profiling because I pay more attention to a plane arriving from Jamaica than a plane arriving from Japan? We need to pay attention to this type of view, since the investigators clearly have a job to do.

We must ask ourselves whether a certain racial behaviour has been established in the system in general. I'll go back to the insecurity factor I referred to earlier. This insecurity is increasingly omnipresent and is maintained in part by media coverage and in part by the rise of the right. Therefore, I imagine that, in the collective unconscious, there's a certain reticence to welcome people who are perceived as belonging to another culture or religion.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Unfortunately, it's the reality. We're walking down the street and we can be stopped because we're displaying “suspicious” behaviour. This can also raise people's level of insecurity.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Absolutely. I don't want to minimize the challenge faced by the different communities, in particular the Muslim communities or the Central Asian communities.

When I started working here in Ottawa, I participated in a meeting in which there were a number of anglophones. I was told to “speak white” because I was speaking in French to a colleague who was also francophone. It's omnipresent and it's part of human nature. The issue at stake is the way civil society reacts to all this.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

I'll now let Mr. Virani ask questions.

Thank you.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I have a question for Mr. Fatah.

I listened to your interventions very attentively. Part of your intervention seems to be about the whole generation of motion M-103 and how it was an ill-conceived idea to even embark upon the study, particularly the study of Islamophobia.

One of the critiques we heard at length in Parliament at the time of the passage of the motion, and the critique that I think you're echoing today, is how it somehow stifles people's legitimate criticism about the tenets of their religion.

While I would admit that I disagree with virtually everything you've said in your opening discourse and response to questions, I defend your right to say it. That's something that's protected under our Constitution, under section 2(b), which I've litigated as a constitutional lawyer.

I have a simple question. Isn't your presence here today proof in and of itself that we are embarking upon a study that is promoting discussion about all forms of racism and discrimination, including Islamophobia, as opposed to stifling it?

[Tarek Fatah]

Your diatribe against me itself proves that had it not been for the Conservatives, I would not have been here, and any attempt to talk to any Liberal at this stage, where the national director of the party has his own leanings, the national spokesperson has his own, the citizenship minister has his own agenda....

We know very well we didn't come into politics yesterday for any reason. Someone like me has spent 45 years fighting Islamism, and you should know that very well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Fatah, direct your responses through the chair, please, and not directly to Mr. Virani.

[Tarek Fatah]

I shouldn't look at him. Is that what you're saying?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You can look at him, but make sure you speak through the chair. Don't say “you” when you're speaking to him.

[Tarek Fatah]

Is that the issue here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, you have to come through the chair for questions and answers—

[Tarek Fatah]

I understand. Okay, fair enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

—because it may tend to get personal when you go one on one with a person.

[Tarek Fatah]

It's already personal—