Evidence of meeting #72 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was right.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tarek Fatah  Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress
Michel Juneau-Katsuya  President and Chief Executive Officer, The Northgate Group Corp.
Renu Mandhane  Chief Commissioner, Ontario Human Rights Commission
Sam Erry  Associate Deputy Minister, Cabinet Office, Inclusion, Diversity and Anti-Racism Division, Government of Ontario
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Michael MacPherson

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Continue, Mr. Fatah, because your time is running out.

4:20 p.m.

Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress

Tarek Fatah

Certainly, I understand.

On the issue of Islamic presence in Canada, in the corridors of power, it's quite evident for anyone to suggest that they had no position during the fight over sharia laws in position in Ontario, and today come up and say that....

They need to answer the question of where they were when this was happening, when the minister of Islamic sharia from the Government of Pakistan managed to become a citizen of Canada and then propagate the sharia councils that exist over here.

The point being—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Mr. Fatah.

We're now one minute and 20 seconds over on this segment. We have to end the discourse right now and move on.

We're going into a second round of five minutes each.

Mr. Fatah, if one of the questioners would like to give you the time to finish your response, you may be able to get it in then.

The next one, for five minutes, is Mr. Scott Reid of the Conservatives.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I think it's actually Mr. Sweet of the Conservatives.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Sweet, for five minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Fatah, continue your answer.

4:20 p.m.

Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress

Tarek Fatah

Madam Chair, I find it quite disturbing that despite the evidence I produce over here of how Jews and Christians are attacked in Muslim mosques, it doesn't seem to ring a bell with anyone.

Now, if the members of the governing party, the members of Parliament over here, are quite comfortable supporting the very people and institutions that generate hate, not just against Jews or Christians, but Hindus and atheists and Sikhs, then we are at a stage where we are playing politics with the approach. We are not talking about what the future of Canada will be and what sort of an issue is there.

I would have hoped that somebody would ask what's the difference between a Muslim and an Islamist. That could have been defined, but that does not seem to be the interest of the governing party. What it seems is that we have established who we will allow to do what, and in the urban—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Excuse me, Mr. Fatah, this is a parliamentary committee made up of all three political parties. This committee has agreed to study this issue, and I think we should focus on the questions without becoming political about it.

4:25 p.m.

Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress

Tarek Fatah

I understand. I'm permitted to answer. Because the question was asked and I was not permitted to answer, I have been given the time, so I'm bringing it forward to all of you that you have no right to take away my right to critique the papacy that exists within us, where people right at the top dictate your children's names or where you sit.

All of this is being done without anyone else knowing. The ability to lie while speaking the truth and saying that truth and lies are the same is from 1984. The more you assent to it by denigrating the critics of the mullahs as if we are the problem, while the people of the Muslim Brotherhood have come here to establish in every university and they are not considered the problem.... If parliamentarians are happy with those who wanted sharia in Canada and Quebec and are unhappy with those who fought it, that is an upside-down world.

As a group of parliamentarians you should, if you invited me, not scoff at what I'm saying simply because of a political perspective that one has about what needs to be said or not said. Do all the Muslims who are against motion 103 have to be of a certain character for you to accept us a genuine Muslims? Do we have to appear a certain way for you to be certain that we are experts? We are all experts. We have the Quranic right to critique our faith and to determine, in terms of those who have been expelled from their religion and killed, that it will not happen in this country ever.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You have two minutes, Mr. Sweet.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Insecurity has come up so I want to see if I can get an answer from Mr. Fatah as well as Mr. Juneau-Katsuya. In the context of our discussion right now on this motion that's presently at hand, in order to diminish the feeling of insecurity amongst the general population, should we treat all racism, prejudice, bigotry, and fomenting of hatred openly, consistently and equally? That is my question.

4:25 p.m.

Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress

Tarek Fatah

Absolutely: criminalize it, and send people, with harsh sentences, who in their language use it against communities or persons.... No matter whether you believe horses can fly, monkeys can fly, or snakes can speak, one has the right to do what was done by Martin Luther in the 15th century. We need to stand up for human beings, for people and their rights. We need to be able to challenge ideas and ideologies without the fear that we will be called “racist” or “bigoted” simply because we find it absolutely ridiculous that today, in this day and age, there are animal sacrifices going on in my faith in homes and living rooms. There is no authority under any religion to authorize that. Or, people are having kingdoms in the Middle East or royal leaders somewhere who determine our future. This is the 21st century. We do not need imams to tell us.

That is the insecurity. We came here to get away from feudalism, the mafia of the mullahs, and we are being portrayed as the villains. It is our insecurity: who will we go to when you let loose the mullahs on us?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You have 20 seconds.

4:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Northgate Group Corp.

Michel Juneau-Katsuya

From a national security and law enforcement point of view, I think we need to bring the bar to a more reasonable level. I think there has been a lot of shyness and political correctness in the prosecuting process, letting things, under the blanket of free discourse and freedom of speech, go too far. I think we have the law. We have the regulations. We might need to tidy it up a little, but not much.

We have the instruments currently, and we need to be capable of prosecuting the people who go too far without taking away the possibility of having a debate. We need to be able to criticize what needs to be criticized in order to identify what are the Canadian values and what kind of society our society wants to be.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

I'm going to Pierre Breton for five minutes. We're going to the five-minute segments, guys. I know it's difficult, so I just wanted to warn you.

September 20th, 2017 / 4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll share my speaking time with Mr. Virani.

My question is for Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, and it concerns education. My colleague Mr. Samson addressed the issue earlier.

I have three children who attended a very multicultural school. Many communities were represented at the school. The experience was a great asset for my children. I'll use this example. Their friends weren't the “Muslim person”, “Spanish person” or “Russian person”. Their friends' names were Botista, Igor or Abida. These people were their friends, and they came to our place. That's the environment my children grew up in. The school used this asset. The presence of these communities back home enriched our own community.

I really want you to speak to us about education. Back home, immigration is more recent. The fact remains that it's part of the daily lives of our children. It's a bit like a computer, which has been part of their lives since birth. These children are their friends. In my view, the schools are increasingly adapting to this situation.

Regardless, I want you to say how you think our system could be even better prepared and how it could help us.

4:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Northgate Group Corp.

Michel Juneau-Katsuya

We won't reinvent what already exists under the sun. Human nature and school boards work according to the carrot system. However, it would be good to establish a program aimed specifically at encouraging multiculturalism. We could also address the origin of certain communities, the history of peoples and other topics of that nature. These topics are already addressed in part in certain courses, such as social sciences, history or geography. However, they could be covered as part of a program. I admit that I'm improvising a bit here, but the idea would be to support initiatives with tangible things, even if it means providing funding, literature or other things. These concrete programs or activities could then be launched and they would help people discover those around them. Issues arise when we don't know the people around us. The places where there's little contact between communities of diverse origin have the highest levels of racist activities and hate crimes. We must look at this.

All parents know that children are sponges. They're ready to absorb everything and they don't necessarily see evil. I remember a Benetton advertisement from a few years ago. It showed a small white boy and a small black boy, who were both naked and who were looking at each other. The question asked in the advertisement was when they would learn to hate each other. In fact, hate is something learned. Education must be used as much as possible to counter this phenomenon.

The fact that we're constantly bombarded with fake news, fake facts or “alternative facts” is an issue that we're facing and that we can't dismiss. Today, young people are always on social media. It takes about 15 minutes to write fake news, but it takes months to counter it.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Mr. Virani, you can take over.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, you mentioned the rise of the right, the anglophone side and the francophone side. On the anglophone side, would you perceive Rebel Media and sites of that nature to be amplifying the message of the extreme right?

4:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Northgate Group Corp.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

You also talked about social media. If there was a tweet that said, “Alexandre was not alone. His Muslim accomplice has been made state witness to avoid any talk of MuslimOnMuslim terror”, is that the kind of tweet that you think needs to be corrected because it's spreading misinformation?

4:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Northgate Group Corp.

Michel Juneau-Katsuya

It needs to be denounced and, if possible, prosecuted, because here this is defamation.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

That's enough.

Mr. Fatah, that's your tweet. Do you have any comment with respect to what Mr. Juneau-Katsuya just said? You never corrected that tweet.

4:30 p.m.

Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress

Tarek Fatah

I wouldn't correct it, because I am reporting what was reported in the newspapers at the time, that there were two people who were shouting “Allahu Akbar”. That is what witnesses said. What happened after that, I am not privy to that. I am reporting what I had [Technical difficulty—Editor]

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Excuse me, there may be a phone or something sitting right next to the microphone.

Anyway, you've gone over time. I'm sorry. I'm going to have to close this round now because we have to move on. We were supposed to finish at 4:30. We've gone five minutes over.

I would like to thank our witnesses for coming.

I would like to move on. We'll take a short break to get the next panel up.

Thank you.