Canadian Heritage Committee on Sept. 20th, 2017

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

To build on that, we're talking about the need to do this across the nation, so there needs to be a national plan. Ontario has some programs in place and so on. Would you say that the federal government needs to be doing this proactively with all the provinces and territories so that we can actually have a cohesive and coherent national plan?

[Renu Mandhane]

Yes. I think even bringing together all the ministers of justice or ministers responsible for human rights or ministers responsible for anti-racism to talk about common areas of concern and how to attack those across the country in a concerted evidence-based way would be a huge real mark of success for this government. As many of you know, we haven't had a federal-provincial-territorial meeting related to human rights for over 30 years. These are concrete steps through which the federal government can show a real leadership role.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the question of lived experiences, we talk about those a lot and many of them are not even reported.

Mr. Erry, you talked about some data collection and so on. How do we find ways to validate people's lived experiences that are often not even on the radar but that are very real and are happening on the ground? Also, how do we tackle those issues that are surfacing in the social media network? There is so much spreading of hate and racism in social media, and it is very difficult to grapple with it. Do you have any suggestions or recommendations?

I'll open that up to both Mr. Erry and the commissioner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm afraid you have only 30 seconds in which to answer that.

[Renu Mandhane]

All I would say is that I think what is really important as we move towards the government collecting quantitative data is that we analyze that data with the qualitative data, the lived experiences that are there. Otherwise, that data can be analyzed in a way that isn't consistent with people's experiences, and we can't lose sight of moving to an entirely empirical view of racism. Unless we couple that with people's lived experiences, we won't be able to understand the data in a meaningful way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Now I will move to the final person in the round, Mr. Virani, for seven minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you to all of the guests who are here. It's good to see a constituent on the panel as well. I have a couple of questions for Ms. Mandhane that follow a bit from what Ms. Kwan was just asking about.

Can you talk to us a little bit about particular news outlets, alternative or fake news and what those are doing to foment the climate we're in? How can we produce better social cohesion by addressing some of those outlets, at the same time respecting what you call the free marketplace of ideas, which I think is an important cherished idea?

[Renu Mandhane]

I think first of all that, at an individual institutional and leadership level, we need to counter that with our own narratives and our own views. I think we are very scared of using the word “racism” but I think that we do need to be bold and to counter those narratives. I have to say that we're in a new era where everyone's ideas are of equal weight. On social media you can kind of lose sight of the fact that these very vocal voices don't often represent the majority of Canadians. How do we bring the majority of Canadians, and not just racialized Canadians, into this conversation so that they can talk about their concerns about racism, lack of inclusion and economic prosperity?

I think there is room for the government to enforce the hate laws that it does have. We have seen very little enforcement of laws against hate crimes under the Criminal Code. I think if we want to avoid what we're seeing in the United States, we really need to start thinking about defining hate in a way that captures the lived experience of people who experience it.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Just on that point, since there are quite a few lawyers in the room, we've heard and will be hearing from witnesses who talk about incitement to hatred and the requirement of the attorney general's consent to lay that charge. What are your views on that? That's open to anyone on the panel.

[Renu Mandhane]

I have talked to our attorney general about that, and how there needs to be a boldness on the part of our elected officials to call hate hate when they see it. Lawyers know if we never put the law, it's not going change. In terms of being worried about old case law from 20 years ago that defined “hate” in a very narrow way, I think this is a new era and we need to use the tools that we have already created, that Parliament has agreed to, to challenge the very real hatred that we are seeing, not only in the media, but just generally, online and otherwise.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Your colleague, Mr. Azmi, was actually in my riding at a town hall. I've had other events since then where I personally feel—I'm not sure if others feel the same way—there seems to be an emboldened attitude for those who would be extremely critical. There's videotaping, there's aggressive questioning, there's what I consider virtual bullying from people who are voicing extreme views. What do any of you feel is fuelling that? What is emboldening people? We heard a lot from Mr. Juneau-Katsuya on the previous panel about the need for leadership from elected officials to combat issues like that. What's emboldening people to take extreme views and voice them quite freely? How do we combat that? Is it an elected official response or are there other responses that are appropriate?

[Sam Erry]

I think some sort of an answer lies at various levels. The misogynists, the homophobes, the racists, they're always there. There's something in the air that's allowing them to come right out today and express those views more loudly than they normally would, because traditionally, they've been cowards and hide wherever they're hiding. I think the voices of those who are in leadership positions, elected or otherwise, CEOs, to come right out, call it what it is, and call those people out is absolutely critical. I think the other thing is all of us as individuals need to reflect on our values and ask, is this consistent with my personal values and is this something that I would tolerate, and then step up and address this issue. I think all of us are empowered to deal with that. Whether it's family members who have the casual jokes on the weekend, or whatever the case may be, we need to personally step up and be accountable on this issue. Anti-racism is everybody's business. It's not just the business of the anti-racism directorate.

I think there is something in the air, but just to your previous question as well, we need to really think about public education and awareness. We need to think about public education and awareness in a very evidence-based way and use as many channels as we can to achieve a higher level of consciousness in the country, in the province, and also a special focus in the early years. We're waiting too late, respectfully, to have these conversations. We need to talk about this in grade one, in grade two, and so on, because there's a lot of hate spewing in playgrounds. I live in Markham, Ontario, and was appalled to see the swastikas and the KKK spray-painted on, of all places, a slide in a playground for kids. You know it's not the kids from school. You know it's not those kids, but somebody is doing this. We need to start early, and take some personal responsibility around this as well.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Could I just ask three rapid-fire questions? One, can you provide us with the document “A Better Way Forward”? You already have?

[Sam Erry]

We had it circulated.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Okay. Then I have two very quick questions.

Are other provinces interested in what you're doing at the Ontario anti-racism directorate?

Ms. Mandhane, since hate crimes are on the rise against Jews and Muslims, do you think there's a role to play for interfaith dialogue, and building up that in terms of addressing this newest, most violent form of discrimination?

[Sam Erry]

Alberta and Quebec have reached out to us and are interested in this particular approach and thinking about how we would go about putting a plan together like this, obviously relative to their context.

[Renu Mandhane]

In terms of interfaith dialogue, certainly I think there's strength in solidarity. There always is. The greatest human rights battles have been won when people come together across their own identities. I have seen the power of that. There are a lot of interfaith groups, especially Muslim and Jewish interfaith groups. Those are the kinds of community grants I'm talking about, spurring those alternative conversations and allowing them to have public space that counters the public space that's been claimed by people who would rather talk about hatred and exclusion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I want to thank the witnesses for coming and giving us their time, and for the engagement of our committee. I would like to thank you.

I want the committee, as you're getting ready to leave—it's not an in camera thing—to deal with one piece of business, and that is the vice-chair from the Conservatives. We have a name.

Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I'd like to nominate Mr. Peter Van Loan.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

It has been moved by Mr. David Anderson that Mr. Peter Van Loan be elected as first vice-chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions? Seeing none, is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

(Motion agreed to)

[The Clerk]

I declare the motion carried and Mr. Peter Van Loan duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I would like to entertain a motion to adjourn please. Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I so move.