Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 16th, 2017

[Farzana Hassan]

It is a danger, because not everyone is going to be aware of all this, because not everyone will be looking at documents and not everyone will be tapping this resource. There will always be that danger of not knowing what exactly Islamophobia is. It will remain vague in certain communities, so I still have issues with that.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Right.

You used a term that I haven't heard before. You talk about Muslim orthodoxy, by which I think you mean, essentially, a clerical establishment. Is that correct?

[Farzana Hassan]

Yes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

That is distinct from other terms we have used, which refer to the doctrinal beliefs. You're actually referring to a hierarchy that you feel—

[Farzana Hassan]

I would say that it refers to people who subscribe to a more fundamentalist understanding of Islam.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Right.

I've been expressing a concern about what happens to people who are not Muslims, but let me ask it this way. For people who are reformers within the Muslim community, is there a danger for those individuals as well?

[Farzana Hassan]

Absolutely. Someone like me is extremely vulnerable. If something like this were to go through, I would be extremely vulnerable.

It's not just about legal action; it's also about social censure and other things that the motion will start a process towards. That's my fear as well. It's not just about the legalities.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 25 seconds.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Okay.

In that case, Dr. Bennett, you have 30 seconds to respond to my earlier diatribe.

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

Sure.

I would just say on pluralism that keeping genuine pluralism means that you have to allow all beliefs and expressions of belief to exist. You can't say that we have pluralism if you say, “As long as you ascribe to these beliefs, you're in the camp; if you don't, you're anathema.” That's not pluralism; that's autocracy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We go to Jenny Kwan for the NDP.

You have seven minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.

I'd like to focus on one aspect. Mr. Bennett, I think it was you who offered the comment that there is racism and religious discrimination in Canada. It was something to the effect that there always has been, and I suspect, sadly, that there always will be. To that end, that's where my interest is in terms of this motion, and I think that's the spirit in which this motion was brought about.

There is a lot of discussion about different definitions. I'm not going to get into that debate, because you can spend all day doing that.

What I want to get into, though, are actions that can be taken to address this issue, recognizing that, yes, there is discrimination. Religious discrimination and racism have always been there and always will be, but to the degree to which we can assist in minimizing racism and religious discrimination, what actions can we take as a government in moving forward? Some have suggested a national strategy on anti-racism. Some have suggested, within that strategy, to also put a parallel piece on religious discrimination. I'd like to get your feedback on what action you think this committee should be recommending to the government to address exactly that issue.

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

The first thing is for the committee to reaffirm the fundamental freedoms in section 2 of the charter. We have a charter of rights and freedoms, so we act on it. As I said, the government has a responsibility to uphold the charter.

Second, where government does have jurisdiction in terms of legislation and regulatory frameworks and so forth, whether we see anti-Muslim hatred or whether, as Mr. Worthen, a previous witness, talked about, it's increasing discrimination against physicians and health care workers who hold particular views on euthanasia or whatever it might be, there needs to be more robust protection in various human rights codes for people who have particular views that are deeply rooted in religious belief and conscience, to have those views protected so that they are not discriminated against and they cannot lose their position within a publicly funded hospital or whatever it might be. There are ways in which government can act within its purview, but it would be to strengthen conscience protections and protections for freedom of expression and freedom of religion or belief.

Again, broadly speaking, government should act as a facilitator within communities to encourage communities to engage with one another.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

On the issue around facilitating communities, I too believe the government should particularly help facilitate the NGOs and the community groups that are often trying to do this work without very many resources. It is important also to provide training for government agencies and officials and so on.

If we're going to facilitate that work on cross-cultural and interfaith awareness and education and also provide training, should that be resourced by government within a national strategy, or should it be left up to each community to try to do its own thing?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

It could be included in a national strategy, but again, in terms of where government plays a role of facilitating, in this country we have a representative democracy. You, as members of Parliament, have particular interests over and above that. You have political interests, and Dr. Doobay mentioned this. In facilitating engagement between different communities, the role of NGOs and so forth, there's always a tendency to favour NGOs that agree with a particular political position, no matter what party is advocating it, whether it's the Conservatives, the Liberals, or the NDP, whatever it might be.

If you're going to bring together NGOs and community groups to have that type of dialogue, there has to be a constant check on political inclination, if I can put it that way. You should always be seeking to engage broadly, including with those groups that do not meet maybe a particular ideological test. You should always be seeking to engage those NGOs that maybe disagree fundamentally with a particular discourse in society.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Fair enough.

I want to take it to another area. On the issue around the impact of systemic discrimination, I know some would argue that there has been little or minimal impact, but others would argue that there has been significant impact, particularly for community groups, financially and economically as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Our statistics also back that information up in terms of effects of systemic discrimination affecting people's economic situations. On that issue, can you share with us quickly whether or not you think that is an issue, and if so, what action should be taken?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I don't see it as a systemic issue. I would echo what Ms. Hassan said, which was that a lot of members of different communities where there is discrimination against that community have done very well—and Dr. Doobay used his own example—in Canadian society and have prospered economically, socially, culturally, politically, or however it might be. I'm very worried about focusing too much on a kind of broad reading of systemic discrimination. We need to look historically. Throughout our history there have been particular communities that have faced discrimination. Some have faced much deeper discrimination.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Maybe I can get you to pause here. Take, for example, the indigenous community. That is an obvious example of a community where I hope we can all agree there has been systemic discrimination that has impacted them significantly, economically, socially, and so on. Would that not require a strategic approach, and would it not apply to other ethnic communities as well?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

We have to be careful to not see first nations as an ethnic community. They have a particular place—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Sorry; I said “and other ethnic communities”. I didn't say the first nations community was an ethnic community. That wasn't what I said.

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

There are certain strategies that are appropriate to particular situations. In engaging different communities where there are examples of discrimination, you have to address those specific cases and try to adopt a broad approach to encourage communities to engage one another and to come to learn from one another. If people can't express themselves and can't say what they believe and why they believe it, then it's hard for people to engage and it's hard to fight that discrimination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm afraid we've gone a little over seven minutes. We have one last questioner, and that's Dan Vandal from the Liberals, for seven minutes. This is our first round; we're not going to have a second round.