Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[Nadia Stewart]

Thanks for the question.

I will just start by saying it is sometimes a bit frustrating to still have to justify the need for more racial equity in this industry. It is frustrating for us to still have to be talking about why newsrooms and this industry overall needs to be more representative of the country's population. At this point, in 2021, if it isn't already obvious why this industry should be reflecting the population and even its audience, then honestly I don't really know what to say.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Absolutely.

[Nadia Stewart]

What I will say is that we encounter a lot of young, Black journalists in the work that we do. Our concern is that with what they encounter as they enter the industry, or the barriers they face that keep them from getting into the industry, they're just not going to want to enter journalism at all. This is a problem for us because we know that we need more Black journalists.

It's one of the reasons that the CABJ media started a boot camp. We have a program where we train and equip Black journalists to launch their own digital media start-ups because there are so many who are frustrated with the situation in the industry and have decided that they could best serve their community if they skip the newsroom altogether and built a platform to speak directly to this underserved audience.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We are seeing that even just local media in itself is not able to have a voice. We're losing our local media, particularly when we look at a disadvantaged group of journalists who are already in that situation.

I'm going to ask the Racial Equity Media Collective a question now. When Bill C-10 was being developed there was very little consultation with the BIPOC community organizations in music, film and TV. They weren't consulted in the research and the drafting of the bill.

Can you talk a little bit about how and why community consultations are a key portion of moving forward on racial equity? I'll pass that to Ms. Barsoum.

[Sherien Barsoum]

Thank you so much for the question.

That's actually a wonderful question and we're really glad to be sitting here today at the table with you. We wish we could have been at the table months and months ago.

The answer to your question is that without community consultation, decisions will be made that don't adequately reflect the needs, priorities and the challenges of the communities that this bill and this committee is hoping to serve. If you don't have those voices at the table, you just are not going to be able to meet them.

I would go further to say that the industry as a whole.... I think we're going to believe in the goodwill of this government and the goodwill of this committee, and the goodwill of folks who really have seen what's happened over the number of years and want to see change in this country. Unfortunately, goodwill isn't enough. Good intentions aren't enough and the industry really does need to be compelled to make these changes whether it's through benchmarks, targets, incentives or whatever the mechanisms are. We still have a way to go with gender parity. We need to do the same thing when it comes to racial equity.

The community needs to continue to be consulted so that when the decisions are made to create these mechanisms and compulsions for change, they're done with the right voices in mind.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have one last question for you, if you wouldn't mind.

In terms of the recommendation that you have to have the equity oversight through senior staffing within both Canadian Heritage and the CRTC, why is it so important that there be someone at both Canadian Heritage and the CRTC?

[Amar Wala]

I can start by backing up a little bit. As Ms. Stewart pointed out, the last year has looked very different in terms of the industry's approach to our community. Something shifted after the George Floyd incident. Of course, we can all sort of wonder what that was, but there was a time before this where these needs and this type of consultation we're after were really kind of ignored. A lot of the shifts you're seeing only happened in the last year.

With the CRTC and the Broadcasting Act specifically, there are files outside of broadcasting that would not be touched if the officer was just placed within the CRTC. We want to see changes across all of Canadian Heritage's files. Institutions like Telefilm Canada, for example, may not actually connect with broadcasters because our feature film system is slightly different from our broadcast television system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Wala, and thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We have time for round two. I only like to do that when I can include all four parties. I'm going to be very strict on time, however. I don't mean to be rude.

We're going to start with Mr. Shields from the Conservatives for five minutes, please.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Quickly, this is for the Canadian Media Producers Association. I may be the only one in my family who has cable anymore. My adult children and adult grandchildren don't. On Bill C-10, you talk about the advantage of global streaming services. As I discuss this with my children and grandchildren, they have no idea what Bill C-10 is or what it can do. They just want to go find whatever it is they want to watch.

When you look at Bill C-10 and talk about the advantage of global streaming services, how can this bill work to your advantage? Where do you see we're going with Bill C-10 in helping do what you want to get done?

I'll start with Ms. Haskett.

[Erin Haskett]

Thank you for your question.

I think this is a real opportunity for us, especially as we have new storytellers and new points of view coming to the table. We've essentially had a group of gatekeepers in this country who have only allowed a certain kind of story and that has to serve a certain kind of audience.

There's a lot of flexibility for us, particularly with the independent production sector. It's really important that we strengthen that to be able to focus on the diversity of regions, voices, sizes of company and kinds of producers. The opportunities with Bill C-10, especially with the recommendations we're making today around owning Canadian content and including codes of practice, would really strengthen our domestic industry as a whole.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

How does that get to my children and grandchildren, so they would find that? They're not watching CBC. They're not watching cable. They're going directly to global services to get what they want.

I don't watch much on cable either anymore. I don't watch mainline news show anymore. I get mine from social media. How does Bill C-10 help get yours to the platforms?

[Erin Haskett]

Especially for us as Canadian producers and as it's proposed in Bill C-10, if there's a requirement around Canadian content, we ultimately will have a voice on those streaming services—whatever streaming service it may be. There's a different kind of resource available to us with that. Ultimately if you're looking at any of those particular streaming services, you'll be able to find Canadian content.

I'm just going to throw it to Reynolds or Damon, in case there's anything they wanted to add to that.

[Reynolds Mastin]

One of the things we very much welcome in the bill is that there is an explicit focus on discoverability. That would be part of the public proceeding that the CRTC would launch, in which obviously the streamers would participate—and we would as well—to determine what the best way is to ensure discoverability of Canadian content on streaming platforms.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It's an excellent comment. I appreciate that, because if there isn't a way to discover it....

Is this legislation strong enough to challenge the global services? Look at what Australia is dealing with at the moment. Can we, under Bill C-10, be strong enough to challenge the global services?

[Reynolds Mastin]

I believe the tide has shifted. We are all watching very carefully what is happening in Australia. We applaud what the Australian government is doing. We welcome the fact that Minister Guilbeault has stated his support for Australia's stand.

We see this as part of a global trend. Look at what's happening in the European Union, where they are bringing into effect equivalence requirements on these platforms to promote local content in the EU. We have every confidence that this government, this country, can do something similar and be successful.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Is it in Bill C-10? Do you believe Bill C-10 as a piece of legislation can do that?

[Reynolds Mastin]

The key elements are all there. We've mentioned a couple of other elements that we would like to see in the bill, but there's no question that it represents a giant step forward from where we're at.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Of those things you mention, if you had a choice to make in strengthening it, which is the most important out of the options you said?

[Reynolds Mastin]

The most important are codes of practice, because they enable the producer to hold on to their IP.

Damon, you held on to the IP in The Book of Negroes. What now has been the result of that?

[Damon D'Oliveira]

Just to finish what I'd started earlier, we're now in development for a spinoff of The Book of Negroes with the CBC, which resulted in our maintaining ownership of the underlying IP. Had I done this with a digital streaming service, it might not have come to pass.

If I might, I will give just a quick example. Michaela Coel, who is a brilliant Black British filmmaker and actress, did a show called I May Destroy You. She had an offer from a streaming platform for $1 million to give over all the rights. They wouldn't even give her as much as 1% copyright ownership of that show. She actually said no. She took it to the BBC, where there are codes of practice in place. She was able to form a partnership with the BBC and with HBO in the U.S. to make that show and retain underlying copyright for her—

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. D'Oliveira. At the risk of cutting you off again, sir, I apologize.

[Damon D'Oliveira]

No, I do go on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

It's not a reflection on you or your work. You just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Nevertheless, we have to move on.

Mr. Housefather, you have five minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to share my time with the great Black journalist we have on our team, Ms. Ien.

I will devote my questions to the CMPA.

As somebody who used to practise as a general counsel, I know how important intellectual property is. I think it would shock the consciousness of Canadians if they understood the types of deals that Netflix was actually asking Canadian creative forces to make, which are basically buyouts, where you get paid a set amount of money up front. They may retain you for two years as an employee on the show, then get rid of you no matter how successful the show is and do the show entirely with a creative team outside of Canada.

In terms of amendments to Bill C-10, in 2004 the United Kingdom created a terms of trade that gave independent producers control over secondary rights of their content. I understand that it had both economic and creative benefits. Can you speak to what the U.K.'s example was and what amendments we should make to Bill C-10 to reflect what the U.K. actually did?

[Reynolds Mastin]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Housefather.

In fact, our codes of practice language in the amendment is inspired by what happened in the U.K. You rightly note that codes of practice were first introduced in 2005. Within the span of eight years, the capitalization of the U.K. independent production sector tripled. It went from approximately $1.3 billion to $3.1 billion in under a decade.

What it also did, because those companies were able to hold on to their IP and meaningfully invest in their shows, is that it led to one of the golden ages of British content, which we've all been talking about for years now. You also see the benefit in terms of the quality and impact of the content that is ultimately produced, because those local companies have been able to hold on to the IP and meaningfully invest in the development and production of their shows.