Evidence of meeting #47 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Can you explain that piece for me as to uneven bargaining rights? It's uneven bargaining rights against whom? I think we're talking about $14 to $26 per student.
Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
We're talking about $14 to $26, but in 2011 the numbers increased significantly, leaving schools and universities with very little recourse in order to push back and to find a helpful place where the costs they were proposing would work for universities and colleges.
I should add that the copyright compliance officers at universities are going to need to be there whether they have an Access Copyright licence or whether they follow fair dealing. Access Copyright does not give you the opportunity to copy 100% of the work, and universities need to follow that as well.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Did you have the copyright compliance people before 2012?
Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
We did. We certainly did, within libraries and in other places.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Is it the same number, or has that number increased since 2012?
Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
It has probably increased since 2012.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
I have another question. We were talking a bit about the difference between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If I understand it, Universities Canada represents universities both in Quebec and outside of Quebec.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
How do you explain the discrepancy in the fact that universities in Quebec seem to be agreeable to paying into collective licensing with Copibec and yet there is a challenge outside of Quebec?
Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
Well, I think it's the question of what the market will hold. Copibec has a licence that is at $13 and something; I don't know exactly what it was. At the time that it was last signed, the Quebec institutions agreed that it was a fair price. At that time, in front of the rest of Canada, the number facing them was $26 for a licence. It's a level that is defined by market force.
I will say that the price is going down and that the price continues to go down, because, as I said in my earlier testimony, the actual need and desire for that in the market is not as high as it once was. That's the way it has been going.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
What are the savings to the universities for having this education exception? Is it $14? Is it $26? Is it more than that?
Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
It's hard to quantify. As I said, universities are spending more and more on other forms of material and copyright-protected material, so the actual savings, I think, are minimal. I think it's shifting.
I've used an analogy to say that we used to all pay $50 a month for our land line and now we pay $50 a month for our cell line. We're not saving money; we're just putting the money into different ways of doing the same thing.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
Thank you, folks.
I'm sorry, Ms. Dabrusin. I sometimes get a little bit generous with the timing. Unfortunately, I have to move on because we're now starting our third round, which we don't often do, but here we are.
I know Ms. Levy and Mr. Degen had their hands up. I apologize. Hopefully, you can work that in later.
Mr. Shields was originally up, but Ms. Shin, would you like to ask a question? Before you do, can you tell me the name of your riding? I already know it, but I don't think we got a sound check from you at the beginning.
Tell me the name of your riding and in two sentences tell me why it's the best in the country.
Conservative
Nelly Shin Conservative Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
I'm from Port Moody—Coquitlam. We have the most beautiful, scenic places. Everyone will want to go to see the salmon runs and hatcheries. It's beautiful.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Scott Simms
We got a thumbs up for your description and for the sound check itself.
Ma'am, you have five minutes. Go ahead.
Conservative
Nelly Shin Conservative Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you so much.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for speaking today on the topic of copyright and the need to update Canada's copyright laws.
As I'm listening to the discussion, I hear the frustration. I also am reminded how, in general, the public has a lot of misguided perceptions about the value of compensating writers and artists in general. I'm a composer myself. I remember before my work as an MP that it was an ongoing struggle.
It's very clear that the numbers that were passed around.... It's not a large amount. I would love to hear that conversation going further.
Could I hear from Access Copyright? What is the argument that you're hearing from those who don't want to change the laws and enforce the tariffs, etc.? What is the argument?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Access Copyright
What we hear and what we've heard also before the court in the York case is that people already pay for it or that what they use is offered in open access licences and therefore they don't need to pay for it, or that the amount they use is so little that it is fair. It's done under an exception.
The court concluded, once four weeks' worth of evidence was brought before it, that they do not already pay for the stuff that gets copied without payment; that there aren't, in fact, licences there to pay for it; and that a lot gets copied and is copied in a mass and systemic way. The amount that gets copied is not fair. The amount that gets copied is not in compliance with the teachings of the Supreme Court. The amount that gets copied is very harmful to writing and publishing and is therefore illegal.
Lots of statements are made that haven't been backed by facts, certainly not when we were before the Supreme Court.
I had my hand up a little bit earlier. Mr. Landon spoke about the rate and you also spoke about the amounts and the rates. If it's a disagreement on the amount that should be paid, then we have in Canada the perfect vehicle to address that. We have a specialized tribunal whose role is precisely to set the rates when the rights holders and the users of the content are not able to negotiate an agreement on their own. If they're not able to agree, we have a Copyright Board to set the rate. That should not be the concern about going forward and putting in place, again, a return to collective licensing.
I hope that answers your question.
Conservative
Nelly Shin Conservative Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you. That's very helpful. I would like to ask Mr. Degen if he'd like to speak on that as well.
I just wanted to add that I don't understand what the problem is. When it comes to patented industrial materials and things like that, there is no problem enforcing different fees, etc., on those. I personally think that there is a lot of discrimination toward writers and artists in general that needs to be changed, but I'll let Mr. Degen speak further to that.
Executive Director, The Writers' Union of Canada
You're expressing a lot of confusion about the arguments against our making a living from our creative work, and believe me, I share your confusion. I've been arguing about copyright online for a good decade and a half, and I still don't understand why there is this reluctance to pay.
We talked about rate. Mr. Landon talked about the $14.31 and how it used to be $26. Again, I can tell you that as a consumer of education, $26, $45 or $100 would be a bargain for the amount of copying that is done in post-secondary education right now, so the fact that it's at $14.31 is just an absolute bargain.
Mr. Landon also mentioned that fair dealing is a question of balancing the rights of the user and the creator. It's clear what we're talking about here: It's 10 years of non-payment and $150 million owed. We are way out of balance in Canada, and the argument that we just need this little balancing mechanism is long past. We need to rebalance copyright and we need that done through the recommendations.
Conservative
Nelly Shin Conservative Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you so much for that. Again, it just brings me back to the issue of dignity. I know that copyright is only a small portion of income, and what I see here is really a fight for the dignity of the creators.
Mr. Landon, what are some of the ways that you feel...? I could call it a debate, because that's what it seems like we're still doing. What are some ways that you think would be helpful to help you understand the side and the arguments of the content creators?
Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
I think we understand the side of the creators. It's more the question of the Access Copyright collective looking to have mandatory licences that universities and K-12 schools are compelled to pay when the law of this land, the Copyright Act, says that fair dealing is a user's right. The determination of what fair dealing is and how we get to the right place on that is a little bit of the challenge, and it is before the Supreme Court right now.
Liberal
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McNicoll, it's a pleasure to meet you, as you are one of my favourite children's authors. I really appreciate it, and I know you're also originally from Montreal.
Mr. Perro, it is a great pleasure to meet you in person.
I'm going to start with a question to Ms. Levy.
We've talked a lot about the Canadian experience and fair dealing. What is the major difference between the United States' fair dealing, or fair use, versus the Canadian fair dealing? Can you give me a couple of examples of how our copyright legislation is different in Canada from that of the United States?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Access Copyright
One thing that makes a big difference between fair use and fair dealing is that the courts in the U.S. have said that there are no bright-line rules, so you cannot come up with guidelines the way the education sector has done here and say you can copy up to 10%, a chapter, etc., and be blessed to go ahead and roll that out across the country, as has been done in Canada. In the U.S. that is not possible. There are no bright-line rules at all.
Another element that is quite different between the U.S. and Canada is that in the U.S., if there is an impact on the market for the work, that is one of the most important aspects in looking at fairness, and the availability of a licence tends to trump the fairness of the use in the U.S. It is not so clear in Canada how that works.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Would that be similar to the court's decision that an unpublished work in Canada can essentially be used in a different way than in the U.S.?