Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 27th, 2020

[Yvan Noé Girouard]

There is the tax credit, which our members are not eligible for because two reporters are required—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Go ahead, Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Out of respect for the witnesses, I feel I have to point out that the sound quality on the French channel is inadequate. We can hear Mr. Girouard, but his voice is coming to us with an echo. I don't know whether the technical problem is the responsibility of the IT staff or whether it is because Mr. Girouard is using a channel other than the French one when he speaks in French. But it is very difficult to follow the conversation. I wanted to point out this problem because, in my opinion, Mr. Girouard's testimony deserves to be heard.

[Yvan Noé Girouard]

Is that better now? Can you hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Yes, we can, but I don't think that's the issue, Monsieur Girouard. We may have a problem with the echoing that's taking place under the French interpretation, as Mr. Champoux points out.

I'm going to stop for about two minutes to check out the situation.

Monsieur Champoux, thank you for bringing that to my attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

We're back in session.

You have one minute left if you want to continue your questioning, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I am just going to let Mr. Girouard finish what he started to say about the tax credit.

[Yvan Noé Girouard]

About the tax credit, I was saying that organizations have to employ two reporters in order to be eligible for it. In community print media, that is practically impossible. Often, the papers are put together completely by volunteers; when they have an employee, that employee does everything. He is the reporter, the photographer, the editor-in-chief, and sometimes the CEO.

We would like the act to be amended so that the number of reporters goes from two to one.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay, I understand.

As I do not have a lot of time left, I am going to yield the floor to Mr. Champoux.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Once again, I would like to thank the witnesses for making themselves available to take part in today's meeting.

I would like to ask Mr. Hinds a question, as the representative of News Media Canada.

Your organization argues that the Australian model should apply in terms of the royalties to be imposed on the tech giants for journalism content. The government maintains that there are differences between the Australian market and the Canadian market and that it would be difficult to apply that model. That does not mean that it should be discarded. We can easily draw some inspiration from it.

What are the advantages of the model that would be applicable here and that would satisfy the entire industry?

[John Hinds]

Thank you.

Obviously, while Australia is a country of similar media landscape and similar political landscape to Canada, any model would have to be adjusted to local context.

What we like about the Australian model is its simplicity. We don't want to get into a situation where government is taxing and allocating stuff to media, because we've heard from a number of people, particularly a number of deputies, that that's not a way we'd like to go. This really allows the industry and the digital monopolies to negotiate fair terms for compensation. I think that's the thing about the Australian model that is appealing.

The other thing that's appealing about the Australian model is, unlike the French model, which only deals with the compensation for the journalism content, the Australian model has a code of conduct. We've also seen in the last couple days the British government putting forward this idea of a code of conduct. The code of conduct regulates the ad side of it. When Google and Facebook want to change their algorithms, they have to give 30 days' notice. They can't boot things off and change things.

I think what we like about the Australian model is that it doesn't raise taxes and it doesn't deal with government intervening in the marketplace, but it allows a fair market interaction between the platforms and newspapers.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Is it not your impression that inviting each organization or company to come to agreements with those giants would create an imbalance, given the weight they may have when facing the giants at the bargaining table? Do you not think that it could create unfairness in the market?

[John Hinds]

Yes, it could. One of the things again that the Australian model provides and one of the things that we're looking for in any model is the ability to negotiate collectively. Currently, as an industry, we're not allowed to negotiate because of competition rules. We can't negotiate fees with the digital players.

What we would be looking for is the ability to negotiate as an industry for fair compensation. I think that is only fair to everybody, because we're seeing even right now that some of the digital players are offering licences, but they're only offering licences to the big players. We want to make sure that the same terms and conditions apply to a big daily newspaper as apply to a small community newspaper, so that we're fair across the country and we're fair within the industry.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You talked about advertising, and I feel that Mr. Girouard will perhaps want to give us his opinion on the subject as well.

Mr. Hinds, the federal government has been patting itself on the back a lot about the $30 million it has invested in the media across the country. It says that this will provide the media with the help they need and will give them some breathing room, especially regional media. We know very well that it is clearly not enough.

It has also been mentioned that the government is investing a lot in digital advertising, which clearly means going through the tech giants. The result has been that there was almost nothing left for regional media. The figures that came out last year allowed us to confirm that. This year, we are learning that almost nothing has changed in that regard.

What would you like to tell the government about its way of buying digital advertising in regional media, given that we are talking about several tens of millions of dollars a year?

[John Hinds]

The thing is, in digital media, we're very interested in this, yet one thing we have to be clear about is that, for many of our members, digital is not relevant. They are essentially print publications and the way you're going to communicate with those communities is through print publications.

On digital, we have worked very hard as an industry. We put forward the Maple Network Exchange, which is our digital players, our digital companies, who are looking to work with the government directly so that any digital money that is flowing from the Government of Canada to our audiences flows directly.

As I said earlier, we reach as many people as the digital duopoly if we're used properly, and we believe we have an option there that would allow federal government advertising, digital advertising, to reach Canadians through Canadian channels and showing up on Canadian news websites, which is where people want to see it.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Girouard, would a better way of buying digital advertising improve things for your members a lot?

[Yvan Noé Girouard]

Are you talking to me?

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Yes.

[Yvan Noé Girouard]

Okay.

The print newspapers have their websites and are beginning to have a lot of digital advertising. With our advertising agency, CPS, we are beginning to use digital. We are only at the beginning, but things are starting to go well.

I would like to go back to the federal government advertising. Last year, the 62 newspapers we represent received only $2,339 in advertising in total. This year, the amount has reached $35,000, and, for a few weeks, I have been seeing full pages appearing in our media. So it seems that some kind of blockage is being removed.

However, that unblocking must continue after the pandemic. At the moment, it is advertising intended to promote health measures with a view to combatting the pandemic.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

So it is temporary.

That is all this time I have. Thank you, Mr. Girouard.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Yvan Noé Girouard]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

Ms. McPherson, you have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. It's nice to see some of the folks I've had an opportunity to talk to in recent days. I think it would be useful for me to start with my co-Albertans. I do have a few questions for Mr. Muir and Mr. Davis.

You talked a lot about the impact that COVID-19 has had on your organization, the Rosebud Centre of the Arts. You talked about the deep loss of revenue because you have not been able to access the theatre revenues.

What does the future look like for your organization? In what ways have you been able to pivot during COVID-19? What does it look like going forward? What are some very concrete actions you would like to see the Government of Canada take?