Evidence of meeting #100 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vicky Eatrides  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Scott Shortliffe  Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Rachelle Frenette  General Counsel and Deputy Executive, Legal Services, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

8:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 100 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to note that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to Standing Orders, and members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

While public health authorities have suggested that you do not any longer require mask wearing indoors or in the precinct, I would like to say that COVID-19 and the flu are rampant out there, so if you would wear a mask, that would be great for you and others.

I want to take this opportunity to remind everyone in the room that participants are not allowed to take screenshots. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, so you can go and look at it there.

This room is equipped with a powerful audio system. As such, feedback can occur, and it's quite often harmful to the ears of the interpreters. If you have any of your devices or anything, make sure that your mikes are off when you're not speaking. Make sure that you have things far away from the mike so that you don't get feedback sounds. Also, every question you have or anything you want to say, please address it to the chair.

It's my pleasure to welcome the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission today. We have chairperson and chief executive officer, Vicky Eatrides; Rachelle Frenette, general counsel and deputy executive director, legal services; and Scott Shortliffe, executive director, broadcasting. They're here in person in the room.

I welcome you and ask you to begin your presentation. I'm told that you say you don't need 10 minutes; you will need eight. We give you the floor for eight minutes.

Thank you.

8:20 a.m.

Vicky Eatrides Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Good morning, and thank you very much for having us.

I would also like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I am joined today by our head of broadcasting, Scott Shortliffe, and our general counsel, Rachelle Frenette.

Let me quickly touch on three things before we get into questions: first, how the CRTC is set up; second, the context within which we operate; and finally, how we are prioritizing our work.

Starting with how we’re set up, as you know, the CRTC is an independent, quasi-judicial tribunal that operates at arm’s-length from government. We hold public hearings on telecommunications and broadcasting matters, and we make decisions based on the public record.

The commission has nine members: a chair, a vice-chair for telecommunications, a vice-chair for broadcasting and six full-time regional commissioners who are located across the country. Supporting the nine decision-makers is a team of expert staff like my colleagues who are here with me today.

That brings me to the context within which we operate. As we know, Canada’s communications sector touches every aspect of our daily lives. It’s the pathway that connects us to each other, to our communities and to the world around us. Since taking on my role earlier this year, I have had the privilege of meeting with and listening to a range of stakeholders from across the country, and I've heard about the importance of our communications sector. Let me share a couple of examples.

In Whitehorse, we heard many stories about the state of communications in rural, remote and indigenous communities. We heard about one isolated community where students could not pivot to online learning because of a lack of connectivity. Their children lost one, two and three years of education.

Another example takes us 5,000 kilometres away from Whitehorse to Halifax. As you know, there were devastating wildfires in the area over the summer. We heard first-hand from community members about how they relied on local radio stations to give them the latest updates on the location of fires and the need to evacuate. We've heard countless other stories about the importance of our communications sector. We know that the CRTC has an important role in regulating the sector.

That brings me to our areas of focus. Earlier this year, we set out three priority areas for the CRTC: first, promoting competition to deliver reliable and high-quality Internet and cellphone services to Canadians; second, modernizing Canada's broadcasting system to promote Canadian and indigenous content; and third, improving the CRTC to better serve Canadians.

Let me briefly touch on each.

I am going to start with telecommunications.

We are taking action to increase choice and affordability for Canadians, while supporting investment in high-quality networks. Our approach to cellphone competition is a good example of how we are advancing this work.

In May, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the CRTC, established rules that allow regional competitors to operate across Canada using the networks of the large cellphone companies. With this access, regional providers can expand their reach and offer Canadians more choice. However, that approach is only a transitional step. Regional providers can use the existing networks now, but they must put their own independent networks in place within seven years.

Our work is already showing results. Canadians can go online today and find offers that were not on the market a year ago. These improvements are an indication that we are moving in the right direction in cellphone services competition. We are working hard toward promoting competition for Internet services as well.

In March, the CRTC launched a proceeding on the Internet services market to create more choice and lower prices. Two weeks ago, we released an initial decision as part of this proceeding. On a temporary and expedited basis, the CRTC is providing competitors with a workable way to sell Internet services using the fibre-to-the-home networks of large telephone companies in the provinces where competition has declined most significantly.

We are continuing our work on this proceeding and will be holding a public hearing in February.

We have a lot of other work underway on the telecommunications front.

As you know, we are also busy on the broadcasting side. Parliament has given us a mandate under the Online Streaming Act to set up a modern broadcasting framework. The changes needed to implement the modernized Broadcasting Act are substantial and complex.

In May, we published a plan that sets out a phased approach to modernizing the regulatory framework. As part of this plan, we launched four initial consultations. In response, we have received over 600 submissions. Many of them are long and detailed. All of them show that people are highly engaged.

The first consultation looked at which online streaming services need to provide basic information. The second looked at basic conditions of service. The third consultation involves the regime for fees, which recovers the CRTC's costs of regulating the industry. The fourth consultation looks at contributions that players need to make to support the broadcasting system.

Today, right after this appearance, we are on day four of a three-week public hearing on this consultation. We have heard from approximately 20 intervenors so far and look forward to hearing from over 100 more. During this hearing, we are exploring whether streaming services should make an initial contribution to the Canadian content system and, if so, where it should go. We are also asking whether this would help level the playing field with Canadian companies who are already required to support Canadian content.

Through our hearings, we are building a robust and diverse public record that will enable us to make decisions in the public interest.

As you know, we have also been given another mandate by Parliament this year. The Online News Act requires us to set up a bargaining framework for fair negotiations between news organizations in Canada and the largest online platforms. We have published our regulatory plan, and will launch a public consultation soon to gather views.

Our third area of focus is improving the CRTC to better serve Canadians. I have heard directly that the CRTC needs to move quickly and transparently, given the impact of its decisions on consumers, businesses and the Canadian economy. We have heard what people are asking for and we are becoming a faster and more transparent commission, thanks to the efforts we are making behind the scenes.

We're doing more to engage with Canadians; we are clearing backlogs; we are looking at our internal processes to see how we can do better; and we are dealing with applications in a more timely way.

I've covered a lot in 10 minutes, so maybe I can just end with an earlier thought, which is that Canada's communications sector touches every aspect of our daily lives. We understand the importance of the sector. We understand the importance of our work. The CRTC will continue to work hard to connect people through technology and through culture.

Thank you, again, for inviting us to appear today. We appreciate the opportunity, and we look forward to your questions.

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much. That was very succinct. You stuck to your timelines that you told us you were going to use.

Now we're going to have a question and answer segment. The first one is six minutes. What will happen is that you'll get questions, and you will answer. That is included in the six minutes. It's not just six minutes for questions.

Therefore, everyone, please remember to be as succinct as you possibly can so that we can get as many questions in as we possible can.

We'll begin with the Conservatives.

Mrs. Rachael Thomas, you have six minutes, please.

November 23rd, 2023 / 8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Ms. Eatrides, thank you for being with us here today. We've been looking forward to having you at the table. It's taken a little while to finally coordinate this, and we appreciate your time.

During the debate on Bill C-11, as you're aware, there was great conversation with regard to user-generated content and whether or not it was scoped in. The government tried to insist that it wasn't. What I note, however, is that, in its directive to the CRTC, it has had to make that explicit. It has made the distinction, or it has distinguished for you, that user-generated content is not to be regulated.

If that's already not in the legislation, then why would that distinction need to be made in your directive?

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

I would say that we know that user-generated content is out. That is clear to us. I can't speak to why something was in a directive or not.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay.

However, if it's not in the legislation, why does that need to be a specific directive given to you?

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

We do have clarity at the CRTC that user-generated content is not within the scope. I can't speak to why it was spelled out in a directive.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Do you not feel that you could have interpreted the legislation without that directive?

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

I will turn things over to our head of broadcasting to speak a little bit further about that.

8:30 a.m.

Scott Shortliffe Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Having a directive from government is absolutely within the purview of the government. Because we're at arm's length, we don't engage in a long dialogue with the government about our understanding of the act. We received the act. We interpreted it when we received it. The government has fulfilled or used its power to give us greater clarity. Whether or not we already had realized some of those things is something that the government wouldn't be aware of because we're at arm's length. The government felt that there would be usefulness in giving us greater clarity about the act. We received it. Certainly, we will apply it in the spirit in which it was intended.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I understand what you're saying here today. Of course you're going to take that position. I find it very interesting, as do many Canadian creators, that the government tried to insist that user-generated content was not scoped in within the legislation but then needed to give a directive to the CRTC with regard to that end. That actually suggests that it is, in fact, within the framework of the legislation, hence the need for the directive.

Nevertheless, you also mentioned that you function at arm's length. Your mandate letter says, “The independence of the CRTC, along with the transparency of its processes, will be of the highest importance.”

However, there is a page on the CRTC's website titled “Myths and Facts”. When I read it, I saw that it is, verbatim, the talking points from the minister's office, the talking points that he used over and over again in the House of Commons and right here at this committee table.

I'm curious as to who authorized the publishing of the “Myths and Facts” page.

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

I can briefly speak to that, and I can turn things over to our head of broadcasting.

We are an independent quasi-judicial tribunal.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm just curious about who authorized the publication of that page.

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

We are independent. The CRTC—

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I understand. I'm just curious about who authorized it.

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

The CRTC did draft those myths and facts in order to provide some clarity for Canadians in terms of what was going to happen with the implementation of the legislation. That is something that was drafted by and approved by the CRTC.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay.

Ms. Eatrides, as the head of that organization, did you authorize it?

8:30 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you. That was simple.

I am now curious. I have this OPQ in front of me, which is an access to information that members of Parliament, of course, can submit. In it, the question that was asked by my colleague Mr. Shields was on what type of communication took place between the department and the CRTC.

One of the things that went from the department over to the CRTC was “media lines and questions and answers”. That doesn't speak of independence. Why would the heritage department send you media lines and questions and answers if you're functioning at an arm's length?

8:35 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

I can tell you with full certainty that we absolutely are independent.

I do know that our communications team sometimes shares some communications information, not for comment but just for information.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay, but regarding questions and answers, could you not come up with those on your own, if you're supposed to be functioning independently?

8:35 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

Again, I can't speak to exactly what was shared, but the communications teams do sometimes share some communications information, for information.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay, so not exactly independent.

One thing said by the CRTC is that “Content and digital creators will not be regulated”. Of course, on September 29, out came a podcast registry.

I understand that you will try to lead this committee to believe that you are not actually regulating podcasters but rather the platforms. What is interesting is that podcasters rely on those platforms to get their podcasts out. Of course, by regulating the platforms, those who use them are in fact regulated.

For example, if a bookstore is mandated that they can sell only red books, that doesn't impact the publishers. The publishers aren't being regulated. In fact, they are, because if they publish a blue book, its sales are going nowhere; green book sales are going nowhere.

In mandating things to the platform, you are in fact mandating those who are producing content. Is that not true?

8:35 a.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

I'll be very clear with this. We are not regulating individual podcasts. We are not regulating podcast content, and we are not regulating podcast creators.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I understand that you're not doing that directly, but you are doing it indirectly. It's a distinction without a difference. We'll leave it there.