Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You decided to make the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner, or OSIC, a separate division of the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre of Canada, or SDRCC, which is a step forward. There's a major problem with that, however, because it should be brought under the justice system.

How do you intend to legislate so that the OSIC can take real action, in front of the courts?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

We're working on that.

I wanted to point out that we understand that the very structure of the organization breeds a lack of trust and raises certain questions regarding independence and dispute resolution.

We're working right now on where it's going to land. That's basically the best way to put it. However, it will be housed independently—certainly independent from the sport tribunal—but most importantly will have a much more sophisticated relationship with authorities, I would say, and the justice system.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

What I'm hearing is that there's still a lot of work to be done.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now I'll go to the New Democratic Party, with Matthew Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Minister, I'm going to put a series of questions to you in a rather rapid way. If I take my time back, I'm not interrupting to be rude. I'm just to make the most out of it. I will ask that you try to answer as concisely as you can. Please answer yourself unless I ask that it be directed to staff.

We have a responsibility as MPs to bring voices into our committees. This morning I would like to bring the voice of a survivor and the perspective of survivor Ryan Sheehan, who says that the announcement that was made yesterday was, in fact, a disappointment.

Ryan states that the minister's premature celebrating of all the outcomes will be unsatisfactory to the survivors and stakeholders, and that the commission has no subpoena powers. He talks about the fact that there aren't real victim protections included in the public inquiry. He mentions the fact they had to report their abuse to seven different organizations.

It feels like this is every other process: no safeguards, kind of flying by the seat of your pants, in the exact same way that the OSIC had no teeth and was against the wishes of survivors.

In closing, they say that the minister apologized to survivors for not having a voice up until this point, yet is turning her back on the single thing that most survivors agreed upon: a public inquiry.

How do you respond to that?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I'll start by saying that I'm sorry for what Ryan went through. I'm sorry that we're here. What I can assure him is that I understand that we have to rebuild his trust in the system. I do think that there are safeguards for victims and survivors in this process, some of which I've already mentioned. I would encourage.... I don't even know how to say it.

I honestly believe that the truth and reconciliation commission model is the best way to protect and support traumatized people.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Madam Minister, Ryan states clearly in his correspondence to us that he's not looking for other forums to simply tell stories. They want something with teeth that is going to hold people accountable. We know how reluctant sports organizations were to turn over key documents to this committee for testimony.

How do you expect the commission to get meaningful evidence from them without the powers to subpoena testimony and compel documents for disclosure, as would a national inquiry?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I hear you on that. What I'll say that, when you give subpoena power and you have the ability to compel evidence, you don't get to say who and what. A commission could subpoena or compel the testimony of a victim: “We're very interested to hear what happened to you; come and talk about it.” Then that victim could be cross-examined. That's why the TRC wasn't a public inquiry. That's why I don't think this needs to be.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Madam Minister, let's be clear here. Through you, Mr. Chair....

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I can finish. I can respond.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No, I can reclaim my time.

What we're talking about and I state specifically is that parliamentary committees have the ability and the power to subpoena documents. These same organizations were reluctant to hand over documents to a standing committee of Parliament that has those powers.

What makes you think that they're going to treat this process any differently if they disrespected this process that we're going through here?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I hear you on that. I guess I would reply that one of the things I have considered is that, through funding, I have the ability to require organizations to behave in a certain way. I have considered and not left off the table, by the way, requiring as a condition of funding that they participate fully. Having said that, I cannot get them to produce material that they believe is protected or in the course of another—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You would agree that the House can. You would agree that we can, yet they wouldn't.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I don't know what I would be agreeing to there, so I apologize.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you not familiar with parliamentary privilege and our ability to send for documents and evidence?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I don't know what you're asking me. You can re-ask.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll ask you another question. I see that you're hearing me, but perhaps you're not listening in this moment.

There is no acknowledgement of investigating Own the Podium. You know they've called for this. They've called for Sport Canada.... They've called for an investigation of SDRCC and NSOs. What is included in the plan?

Most athletes do not know the hand that these organizations have played in the culture of sport in Canada. Where are they going to be held accountable in all of this?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As would happen if it had been a public inquiry, the commission has the independence and impartiality to pursue whatever course to investigate the system. OTP is on the table. SDRCC is on the table. COC and Sport Canada, I've already committed, are on the table. They can choose to pull those threads. I think they will and should.

Again, I think I would be criticized if I directed too much as well. I will leave it at the discretion of the commission to decide exactly how they pursue this.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sport Canada ultimately has the power in terms of accountability on this. Who is holding Sport Canada accountable for the part it's played in the sports culture?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Sport Canada's lever, in terms of accountability, is its funding mechanism. We're not a regulator, but in terms of digging in on Sport Canada, part of the announcement I made yesterday was for a complete overhaul of the funding mechanism, because I want more compliance and I want more accountability.

I want Sport Canada to be digging in more, which I think they need to be doing, and they know that. That became very clear over the past two years. Sport Canada has committed to looking at not only its mandate but also the relationships that individuals have within the sport community.

We're doing that internal work as well, but, again, the commission is absolutely free to make any recommendations it wants and we'll take them very seriously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. Your time is up, Mr. Green.

I'm going to the second round. It's a five-minute round, and I caution that the five minutes includes questions and answers.

We begin with the Conservatives with Marilyn Gladu.

Marilyn, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the department witnesses, and especially to the minister, for being here today.

I'm very glad to see, Minister, that you have been put in this role, because I've worked with you before and I know you are a person who will take action. After two years of Pascale St-Onge doing nothing meaningful to address the very serious abuses in sport, we definitely needed to see this change.

Some of the survivors who have spoken to me have expressed concern about the inquiry because they're worried that, if it takes 18 months, it will delay action. From the two committees that studied this, there have been a number of things we heard that needed to be done right off the top: the vulnerable sector checks for everyone, like coaches and volunteers; the banning of NDAs to protect perpetrators; the registry of offenders that you've already mentioned, and I was very pleased to see progress on; and the reporting of all sexual abuse to the police instead of having the organizations investigate themselves.

I heard in the announcement you made yesterday that the commission was not the only thing that would happen and that you were going to be taking other actions. Could you give us some idea what those might be?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Thank you. I'm very happy to be in this role. I'm a systems thinker, and I'm a fixer. I'm hoping that will come out in my time in this role.

I think there's a ton of action we can take right away. Yesterday, I announced, in addition to the commission, six immediate actions. What was the Sport Canada athlete advisory group is now ministerial. I'm taking it directly to me. It's going to be advising me and an athlete advisory group.

We are removing OSIC from the SDRCC because of the concerns around independence. We are striking an international working group to have have countries get together, share best practices and talk about this at an international level.

The vulnerable persons check is in the works. It always takes so much longer than we want because of the jurisdictions in this file. I definitely understand that is a key to streamlining the information. If I'm in a club in Alberta, I want to know why the coach left a club in B.C. to come to a swim club in Alberta. It's really hard to find that information, even for an engaged, sophisticated board, never mind for a volunteer, parent-driven board. We're working on that.

I can't remember all your questions. I apologize.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's good. That's a great start.

Talking about the commission, you've heard some of the survivors' concerns about the commission. The government doesn't have a great track record. We think about the Emergencies Act inquiry cost of $125 million. It came out with really nothing to see here and is now before the courts. Then, there's the foreign interference inquiry that has just dragged on and hasn't really gotten anywhere.

You said that you modelled this one after the murdered and missing aboriginal women inquiry, which, if you recall, went on for years, and they had to replace all the commissioners, ultimately. There were concerns that not enough families of victims were heard from, and once the recommendations came forward, nothing happened with them. How is this going to be different from the previous ones?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

The TRC took a long time. You're absolutely correct. We picked 18 months partially, to be honest, in response to the sport calendar and to make sure we could encompass summer and winter calendars, because we know there's an Olympic and Paralympic Games next year. We wanted to have enough time, but we didn't want it to drag on forever, so we settled on 18 months.

Two features of this will be two reports. There will be a preliminary report with preliminary recommendations. Then there's going to be a national summit where people can weigh in on what the preliminary recommendations were, with people from inside and outside of sport. Then there will be a final report informed by all of that.

We're trying to strike a balance. In the meantime, there's a lot of work we can continue doing, especially some targeted measures we can put in place. There is the policy work we announced yesterday. We're going to advance child safeguarding policies and match manipulation policies. We're going to create a national integrity framework, which is basically putting all the integrity policies we're expecting organizations to have in one place, because right now they're everywhere.

We're implementing a governance code for sports, a best practice. In many cases, they're going to have to overhaul their systems and boards to adhere to this governance code. That's all happening while this other thing is happening. I'm sure I'm missing some because we are doing a lot.