Canadian Heritage Committee on March 23rd, 2022

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Yes, you are competing worldwide.

Are digital creators covered under the act? Should they be covered under it or should they not be covered? What's your impression?

[Scott Benzie]

The truth is I don't have an answer. I posed that question to you guys to have that conversation.

As the act is now, it would be silly for us to be in it. It doesn't even address any of our needs.

I really think that question is something to consider when we're talking about legislation going forward in this country. It's not like digital-first creators are going away or that our impact culturally in the world is going to be lessened in the next few years. I think when we're making any legislative decisions, we really have to take a good hard look at digital-first creators and the impact that we might have on them.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

It's probably the biggest growth area in this country right now. Would you agree?

[Scott Benzie]

There's no doubt about that.

I'm careful not to use words like “new” and “emerging”. A lot of our creators have gone through.... My peers and colleagues here in traditional arts have found themselves distributing digitally. These people have been doing it for a very long time. They've just chosen to find their audience a different way.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I'm going to move over now to John Welsman and John Rowley.

How long as your disagreement with CMPA been going on?

[John Welsman]

We first approached CMPA through the DGC, who is present here today, in a sort of partnership back in 2015.

I forgot to thank you for your question. I'm sorry.

At the time, we were told there was simply no appetite on the part of CMPA for including composers in the agreement. Since that time, we've approached them three times and each time we've been met with, simply, the door is closed at this time or there's no interest. The most recent one was that they don't have time, as I mentioned.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

That's disappointing, isn't it, because the composing of music is the most important thing in any production? Often to us in media, sound is the most important thing, so when I heard your story and that you don't have an agreement.... Despite composing being the most important thing in any production, seven years later you're still trying to get an agreement. That should be, as all former broadcasters, a concern. Wild sound and music are number one; picture is second, so I feel your pain here in committee today.

[John Welsman]

I appreciate your thoughts and couldn't agree more.

I could never have imagined I'd be appearing before a heritage committee to talk about this, but over time it's become clear that there just isn't the interest on their part. Because of the slight unclarity in the act—and this speaks to one of our suggestions for the act—I suppose CMPA doesn't feel compelled to sit down with us. The intent of the Status of the Artist Act was to give groups like ours, which are certified under the act, the power to bring these federally appointed entities to the table.

We did undertake...a few years ago with CTV—that was before 2015—and we kind of got caught when they were purchased by Bell.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

I do have to stop you there, Mr. Welsman, but maybe we'll have another chance to finish that thought in another round of questioning.

Mr. Coteau, from the Liberals, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank everyone for their presentations. They were really insightful.

I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for artists in Canada. You promote Canadian culture, you maintain our identity, and especially during this time period, coming out after COVID, it means so much. Thank you so much for everything you do.

I'm going to continue with you, Mr. Welsman, if you don't mind.

I just have a couple of really quick questions. You're saying that when someone in your field creates music, as a composer for a TV show or a movie, technically you don't collect the royalty rights afterwards for that content? Is that correct, usually?

[John Welsman]

At the time a piece of music is composed, under the Copyright Act in Canada, the composer is the sole owner of that copyright.

When we negotiate our deals with independent producers, there is an imbalance of power—we have to face it here—and in that negotiation, they are frequently asking us to assign the copyright to them, or a portion of it. That effectively means that a portion of the downstream revenue, the royalties that would come to us through SOCAN—formerly SODRAC—would then be diverted to the producer or shared in some way.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'm going to jump back in.

You're saying that once it's created and there is negotiation, you could receive 20% royalty rights and they'd get the 80% for future use—I'm just making this up.

Are you saying that it's really hard as a composer to negotiate because otherwise they'll just go somewhere else? Why can't you just negotiate a better deal?

[John Welsman]

Well, there are other composers, and they do essentially.... It's a take-it-or-leave-it proposition for some members of the CMPA. We should be clear here: This is not all media producers by any stretch, but it's increasingly common that they're exerting that pressure. We have had mid-career composers who aren't starting out—they should be commanding their full rate—with an offer on the table that could be one quarter—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'm going to jump in, John, and I'm not trying to be rude. It's just that I have six minutes and I have a bunch of questions. I think this is a very interesting point.

Explain this. You're saying that in the Quebec model, they have a system in place where there is a negotiated collective agreement that protects composers like you, so they often end up with much better deals. Is that what you're saying?

[John Welsman]

That is essentially it.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay.

I'm going to jump now to Mr. Éric Lefebvre from the music guild of Quebec.

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre.

Thank you for your presentation.

My French is not very good, so I'm going to use the interpreters if that's okay.

I just want to ask you a question. The negotiations that take place in Quebec are usually for all different types of benefits. Does it range from pensions to different types of health benefits etc., or is it specifically just for contract work?

[Éric Lefebvre]

It depends on the association the producers are negotiating with. For example, in terms of benefits, the only thing that's negotiated for musicians is a pension fund. The Union des artistes has managed to negotiate a pension fund and group insurance for its members. However this is generally not the case. For example, the Association des réalisateurs et réalisatrices du Québec only succeeded in negotiating a share of remuneration, which is paid into an RRSP or some kind of pension fund.

Generally speaking, few artist associations are able to negotiate attractive benefits. This is the exception rather than the rule.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Right.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You have a minute and a half.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

A minute and a half. Thank you so much, sir.

I'm going to go back to John, if that's okay, from the Screen Composers Guild of Canada.

Are there models out there where there are co-operatives or guilds that look to come together within your sector to negotiate, or do you have to go through the larger organizations like the CMPA, as I think it's called?

[John Welsman]

If I may, my counterpart has a legal background. If he would, I would like him to answer that question.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

We have one minute left—maybe 50 seconds.

[John Rowley]

If I can reframe that little bit, I would say that all of the other points generating key creatives within the CanCon system do have agreements with CMPA. CMPA represents all of the anglophone independent media producers, so it really is the organization that the other key creatives have their agreements with. That's certainly where the screen composers would want to have their agreement.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I would love to have a follow-up meeting with the both of you if you have some time in the future. Thank you for your time.

[John Rowly]

We'd appreciate that, thank you.