Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 20th, 2024

[Matthew Johnson]

We do know that there were cases in which the discussion of certain topics, such as sexual violence, is believed to be down-ranked and that algospeak was developed to be able to talk about it. Discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity is believed to be down-ranked on some apps. Again, I say “believed” because we don't know due to the lack of transparency.

In many cases, even the people who operate these platforms don't necessarily know, because these are not programmed algorithms; they're machine-learning algorithms that are trained on datasets. Therefore, they can very easily encode existing biases without their operators even necessarily being aware or intending for them to do so.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

What age demographic do you work with? Is it right across the board, or do you focus a little more on young people?

[Matthew Johnson]

We focus a little more heavily on young people, partly because that's what we've always done. It's also because, of course, schools are a ready-made way of reaching or of getting our material to people. We also know that parents play a tremendously important role. Our research has shown that again and again. Increasingly, we are developing programs and resources for the entire population.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It's interesting. I remember even 10 or 12 years ago, the average screen time for a young person in Ontario was five hours, and that was considered really bad. Now it's 12 or 13 hours. There's a lot of information being downloaded into that child's brain, and it has a huge influence on their ability to navigate within society.

Suppressing expression is a big challenge within itself. What advice would you give a teacher or a parent when it comes to allowing a child's voice to fully develop so that they can express themselves in the most meaningful way without those external influences silencing their voice?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Give a short, quick answer, please.

[Matthew Johnson]

I would say it's important for young people to be aware that the voice that seems like the majority in an online space or a media space often is not. We know that the loudest voices are often taken for the majority, but we also know that it takes a relatively small number of people speaking out to change what is seen as the majority or consensus view.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you.

We will go to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sérafin, we know that the right to be offended does not exist. That also falls under freedom of expression. We have to remember that.

We are nonetheless in an era of hypersensitivity. Some people are very thin-skinned and react very strongly to comments that they consider offensive.

Do you think that the pressure created by this atmosphere of hypersensitivity could one day lead to legislative changes? Mr. Johnson talked about people starting to censor themselves because they know that certain comments might be offensive to certain people. We are walking on eggshells, in effect.

Can this kind of pressure become dangerous in a society? Can it lead to legislative changes that would in a way infringe on basic freedom of expression?

[Stéphane Sérafin]

The answer is yes.

Actually, that is probably my chief concern in this context. The atmosphere is one of hypersensitivity. The main problem is that people are redefining concepts. In the past, they might have felt offended by certain comments and said they didn't like them, essentially. Now they say those comments constitute prejudice. The concept of psychological prejudice or moral prejudice has gained traction, especially in private law, a field in which I do a lot of research. What was simply offensive or disturbing to some people in the past has suddenly become an attack on them in a sense. That becomes very dangerous territory indeed for freedom of expression.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

We have also seen that kind of thing in the arts world. Many artists and creators have really held back or completely withdrawn some of their works in response to pressures from various groups.

Thank you very much. I think my speaking time is up.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

You actually have 20 seconds left.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

In that case, I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

Thank you very much. It has been very informative.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Okay. Thank you.

I'll give two and a half minutes to Matthew Green from the New Democratic Party.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll take the bait.

Mr. Sérafin, let's not beat around the bush. Let's talk about the University of Ottawa. Let's talk about freedom of expression.

In your estimation, is the use of the N-word prejudice?

[Stéphane Sérafin]

I don't think it's appropriate to simply state it.

That said, the idea that any word.... Forget the cultural taboo around this word. The fundamental, underlying problem here is the idea that a person can say that the mere utterance of a word, no matter the context, is somehow inappropriate, and hold a veto right over other persons saying that word.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Have you, in your experience as an academic, had to use the word?

[Stéphane Sérafin]

I have not.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Has it hampered you in any way?

[Stéphane Sérafin]

That's not the point.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's the question I'm asking you.

[Stéphane Sérafin]

Has it hampered me? No. However, I don't teach courses in which it would be relevant for me to use it.

The case you're probably thinking of—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you believe the use of that word in some contexts could constitute hate speech?

[Stéphane Sérafin]

Well, if I use it to describe someone to their face, absolutely, it is.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you a free speech absolutist?