Canadian Heritage Committee on May 30th, 2022

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses, both here and online.

I will begin by talking to Ms. McGuffin from Music Publishers Canada. We've heard, as recently as today, from witnesses that CanCon definitions are outdated, and they do need to be reviewed.

Can you talk about how our online streaming act, Bill C-11, is already starting to redefine CanCon, and what the new criteria of that bill must be to consider this redefinition? What criteria would be important to our culture, our cultural sovereignty and our creators?

[Margaret McGuffin]

That's a very interesting question, and thank you for asking it.

We're very interested in modernizing what CanCon could look like for the music industry. I'm not an expert on television, so I'll only talk about music. What we want to achieve and our priority is to ensure that emerging songwriters and emerging businesses are found, have an audience in Canada and have an infrastructure around them, before they make the decision to go out on a global scale.

Many of my companies prioritize the global market before they prioritize Canada. We've had very successful Canadian songwriters and composers, many won't know their names, but CanCon for radio and television helped us create that success. We're now looking at the next stage, where we need to carefully look at what can be done to make sure the next businesses are being formed and the emerging creators are being found.

Many of them will need to have a regional support network in a very small part of Canada before they decide to tour and to participate in all of these platforms, so we need to make sure we find a way to support those businesses so the opportunities aren't lost.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

In what ways specifically would Bill C-11 be starting to move that conversation forward to make sure we're moving into the 21st century here?

[Margaret McGuffin]

Definitely, we need to look at modernizing how we find Canadian songs and stories, and we want to give the CRTC the tools, as a modernized place, to have that discussion. I've challenged all of the tech companies we work with, and we work with all of the ones you're hearing about today. We license them, and we work with them to find out what tools they're offering creators and businesses to use their platforms more efficiently. I want them to tell me what they can do.

We may customize at the CRTC what is good for TikTok versus what is good for YouTube, and what is good for the next service. However, we need an incentive for companies to engage in Canada and invest, because many have chosen, often, to initially not put people on the ground or be involved with Canadian creators. There needs to be an incentive for that to happen. For those who want to make the investment, let's customize it so it is good for their platform.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I appreciate that.

You said artists are actively engaged themselves as digital creators. I would like to ensure this is not an “us versus them” debate between traditional artists and digital creators. People are saying these traditional legacy players don't have a presence online and that the traditional industry is living in the past and that digital creators are the future.

We heard from the professional music publishers' association last week that the music sector, itself, is digital. You mentioned it too, that we need our stories to be found and heard, and you're using digital media to do that. Your industry is digital first.

Can you speak to the presence of traditional artists online as digital creators themselves?

[Margaret McGuffin]

Absolutely. My companies are using these platforms on a daily basis with content that they are creating, as well as assisting their songwriters and their composers to create for these platforms and fit it into a marketing plan and a professional development plan that moves them beyond just one platform to other parts of the world. This could include live touring for some. It may include co-writing in Nashville or Denmark for others.

This is not “us versus them”. My members are going out daily on these platforms to look for the next songwriter they're going to sign. They're signing them, they're supporting them and they're investing in them.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

You talk about looking for the next songwriter. We've heard stories of the few who have had tremendous success online, but we know that, overall, for the majority of artists, it's almost impossible to make a living through social media and online streaming. The majority of Canadian creators on YouTube, for example, make less than the median of the average artist. A million streams on something like Spotify sounds like a lot, but it's only a few thousand dollars.

How can we ensure that the system maximizes the potential for artists and creators to have full careers and supports them, regardless of the platform?

[Margaret McGuffin]

We definitely need to invest in them. We need to educate them on these platforms. We need to engage with the platforms to make sure that Canadians are using them in a way that will maximize the number of plays.

We see on these platforms that the top 10% of views are controlled by 100 or 200 creators and companies. The bottom per cent of the views are filled with 10,000. You cannot develop a company or have a creative career in that bottom 10%.

We need to be working with creators and companies as they emerge regionally and in the francophone community to allow them to grow at a pace that allows them to then move into those upper tiers. If they get played, they will get paid.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Tim. That's it.

Now I'm going to the Bloc Québécois and Martin Champoux, for five...six minutes. I'm sorry. I was going to cut off a minute, Martin. Don't yell at me, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

That is not my style, Madam Chair. Thank you very much.

I would like to thank the witnesses once again for participating today in another important meeting of this committee and for contributing to the study of Bill C-11.

I would like to ask a question of Ms. Hinse, from the Fédération des télévisions communautaires autonomes du Québec.

Ms. Hinse, there is a lot of talk about the erosion of regional journalistic coverage, of regional media and, in fact, of major media fleeing the regions. We are seeing this phenomenon in Quebec.

Ms. Hinse, can you tell us a little bit about the role that community media could play, particularly in terms of journalistic coverage, if Bill C-11 recognized their value and if the amendments you are proposing to the definition were adopted?

[Amélie Hinse]

We've seen this trend for several years. There is a crisis affecting the media and their funding, and that means that the regions are receiving less and less news coverage.

The major media cannot have representatives in all regions of Quebec or Canada. They don't have the means. It's an extremely vast territory, and covering it all is a real challenge.

The community media, on the other hand, are established in the communities. They have been there for years. And they are reliable, because they have been created by and for the communities to meet a real need. I humbly think that community media are underutilized by the system at the moment. Since we are already there, it wouldn't cost much to promote local news in all regions of Quebec and Canada. We do the work for a fraction of the cost of the big networks. A major network can't send a correspondent from Montreal to cover what's happening all over Quebec. You need people on the ground. We are already there.

If the role of community media were recognized in the act and the community element and the role we can play were better defined, that would help us do our job better.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You just have to go to the regions to understand the situation.

Thank you very much, Ms. Hinse.

In your opening remarks, Ms. McGuffin, you said that you are in regular contact with the representatives of the major platforms.

How are the discussions and negotiations going?

How do they react to your arguments when you talk to them?

[Margaret McGuffin]

We have several layers of communication with these platforms as they enter the Canadian market. The first one obviously is.... This is not a copyright hearing, but just for your information, we talk to them about whether they are going to be licensed and how they're going to be licensed. Our members participate in the rate-setting process with SOCAN and CMRRA as they are licensed.

We also know that many of our Canadian-based companies then want to use the platforms, so we have a tech summit once a year. Google, TikTok and Amazon all come and meet with our members and talk about the tools that are available to businesses and creators—all the data that's being supplied. In fact, when I go to New York for New York song week on June 13, we're going to be meeting with these platforms there, to meet with the people who really understand publishing and songwriting to see how we can have producers who are not artists discovered on these platforms.

Those are the kinds of discussions we have, and I know my colleague at APEM has done the same type of work.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I hope that you will not lose your optimism and that you will continue to represent the francophone and Canadian cultural industry well.

Thank you, Ms. McGuffin.

Mr. Benzie, we had these discussions during your previous appearances before the committee. In fact, I am pleased to have had the opportunity to meet with you, and I see that you have continued to meet with the department, in particular, as well as with officials and people from the Cabinet. I congratulate you on your openness.

I'm concerned that you mention, again, that you can't tell us exactly how many members your association has or how many people you represent.

After our discussion, Mr. Benzie, I had the opportunity to speak with some young youtubers. They want to break into the web through YouTube. They create different types of content, such as music or interesting small audiovisual productions. However, they find that they are not able to break through.

I asked them if there was a way to include provisions in the legislation that would benefit them, or if they were interested. First of all, they don't even know that they can be represented by an organization. Secondly, they say that, yes, a little help would go a long way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 33 seconds.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Benzie, so there are those who say that this would be beneficial.

I know I only have 30 seconds left, but I will give you the opportunity to come back to this topic a little later.

Wouldn't a broader consultation on your part with the people who are present on these types of platforms be beneficial, given your speech?

[Scott Benzie]

I'm always open to more consultation.

Thank you, Mr. Champoux, but you also said that you spoke to a bunch of creators who have broken through and are also having trouble breaking through, so I'm a little bit confused. Our francophone constituency does have unique needs, and I look forward to exploring them further.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now I go to Mr. Julian of the New Democratic Party for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today.

This is important testimony we are getting. We deeply appreciate your availability in speaking to the committee about Bill C-11 but also about the possible amendments that can actually improve it.

I'm going to start with Ms. Noble and Ms. Blanchette from ACTRA. Thank you for your work nationally. I'm certainly hearing from ACTRA members across the country who are very favourable toward C-11, but you have pointed out something that's extremely important—that you effectively can't have a level playing field if you have two standards around Canadian production. Currently, the way the bill is structured for foreign online platforms, they don't have the same responsibilities in terms of Canadian production and Canadian employment.

Could you talk about the importance of making sure that the bill does set a level playing field and that foreign online platform companies actually have the same responsibilities as Canadian broadcasters do?

[Lisa Blanchette, Director, Public Affairs and Communications, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and Radio Artists]

I'll go, Eleanor, as long as you're okay.

Thank you for the question. I think you heard a similar pitch from the DGC, from Dave Forget in his presentation.

We have been working together with industry stakeholders, with the Writers Guild, the Canadian Media Producers Association and the CDCE.

We are in agreement that having one standard definition, as Dave outlined, is the way to go. To make it as strong as possible, making maximum use is a strong and appropriate standard. It has served us well for decades, and we think it should continue to be the standard applicable to broadcasting undertakings operating in Canada.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for—

[Lisa Blanchette]

I think the traditional baseline should endure and I hope that answers your question.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It does, but I did want to extend the same opportunity to Mr. Sonoda and Mr. Forget, as well, for the Directors Guild. It's the same question about Canadian employment.

[Dave Forget]

To echo Lisa's comments, I would just add one thing. Having two standards, as has been pointed out, is potentially harmful and is unnecessary, quite frankly. In our comments up front, we talked about the fact that it's not just who owns it and it's not just what platform the content is exhibited on, but who makes it. Who makes it are the Canadians, both in the key creative positions—directors, designers, writers and so on—and the crews, and the crews that Warren referenced and he works with on a day-to-day basis.

There's no need to have two sets of standards. Also, if I can demystify something, there is plenty of flexibility already built into the system, so there have been calls for revisiting or perhaps recalibrating the requirements around Canadian content. We're not calling for that, but it's a sensible process that will take place. There's no need to double.... There's a rule of thumb that says you don't need two rules to do the job of one. If that revision and that analysis is called for, that will take place. It doesn't have to take place in the scope of the act. When it does take place, stakeholders like the DGC, ACTRA and others will be there. Any changes or modifications will then be applicable equally to the Canadian broadcasters in the current system and the online players, including the foreign ones who are doing business.

Let's have one standard. Clarity equals predictability and sustainability, so I think that's what we're looking for. Having multiple standards just confuses things.