Evidence of meeting #28 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I appreciate Mr. Julian and his enthusiasm, but I will keep going.
Critics of Bill C-11 have said that it will give the CRTC “sweeping powers” to regulate the global Internet from every large platform to every single user and what they post. Could you describe all the elements of the bill that scope and constrain the CRTC's powers?
7:30 p.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I think Madam Frenette...between your description that we confirmed and Madam Frenette's earlier answer, perhaps that has already been answered.
Maybe to turn it around a little bit, that's not what the regulatory framework is designed to do. We are not looking to regulate individuals or the content generated by individuals. We regulate undertakings. We regulate enterprises and apply a set of rules that are designed to achieve the objectives of the act, and we would do so.... It will be expanded to include other enterprises, but the objectives will remain the same and the regulatory framework should apply equitably to all players.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
How would you respond? There seems to be from the critics this belief that there is this nefarious plot for the CRTC to engage in censorship and over-regulation and to the point of absurdity. I was wondering how you would respond to the critics who claim this to be what's going to happen.
7:30 p.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I think I responded last time and probably in other public fora. We've been regulating broadcasting for over 50 years. We haven't done it to date. We won't do it in the future.
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
In 16 seconds, I will just have to be like Mr. Julian and say “thank you” and give my final comments.
Thank you very much for being here and for being so patient. It was inappropriate that you had to sit here for that long and wait to testify, but I appreciate it.
7:35 p.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Not at all. I was happy to help the committee.
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Chris.
We will now go to the Bloc Québécois and Martin Champoux for six minutes, please.
Go ahead, Mr. Champoux.
7:35 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Madam Chair, I want to tell you that you have the right not to raise your hand when you wish to speak and to speak whenever you want. That's your privilege as chair.
I reiterate what my colleague Mr. Bittle—
7:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I'm sorry. I did not raise my hand.
There must have been a glitch. I am sorry.
7:35 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
I reiterate what my colleague Mr. Bittle just told you, Mr. Scott, and I thank you for your patience. We appreciate you staying with us and thank you for your availability.
I need something explained to me, because I'm a visual person.
Mr. Scott, if I may, I will ask my question directly to Ms. Frenette.
Ms. Frenette, you talked about how the CRTC would have very little leeway when it comes to user-generated content on social media platforms.
Have you been following the testimony we've heard in our previous meetings, including that of YouTube and TikTok users?
7:35 p.m.
General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I followed parts of their testimony.
7:35 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Take, for example, Oorbee Roy, who was here earlier today. She makes skateboarding action videos and, my goodness, she seems to be a great ambassador for that.
Could the CRTC regulate the activities of YouTube and TikTok users like Ms. Roy?
7:35 p.m.
General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Users of a social media platform are not subject to CRTC regulation. Period.
To the extent that the CRTC wishes to impose certain rules, those rules must apply to the platform, not the users.
7:35 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Will users be penalized by the enforcement of those rules on the platforms? Would there be any impact on them?
Witnesses have told us that this was their biggest concern with the bill, and that the provisions to be implemented will reduce their visibility because of the algorithms that will keep them way down the list on those platforms.
Well, you heard what they said.
How can we reassure them?
7:35 p.m.
General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
First, in principle, the CRTC doesn't have the authority to regulate algorithms. That is made clear in the bill.
Second, the CRTC's leeway doesn't apply to social media platforms with respect to regulation of the percentage of French-language content, Canadian content and so on.
Therefore, YouTubers and users of services like that have nothing to fear from the CRTC's legal authority.
7:35 p.m.
Scott Hutton Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I'd like to make a clarification.
The CRTC plans to hold public hearings before implementing its broadcasting regulations. This will ensure that all the ins and outs of the CRTC's powers are well known. The nine members of the CRTC will consider the arguments raised and make a decision, which will be made public and will be very clearly explained to the public.
7:35 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Ms. Frenette, you raised a point that I find interesting. You said that the CRTC wouldn't have the authority to regulate algorithms. In any event, people don't think you're going to clear and recode the algorithms based on the regulations you're going to put in place.
Furthermore, there are those who say that, on the contrary, we shouldn't take away the CRTC's ability to use algorithms to see if goals are being met.
Will it be possible to check if goals are being met on platforms without using algorithms?
7:35 p.m.
Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
The CRTC's goal is not to regulate algorithms, but to ensure that the entire broadcasting system meets the objectives in the act. To do that, we need to put in place regulations to promote and support the creation of Canadian content, to support content development, not to try and unravel algorithms.
7:35 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
So there's really no danger, as you say, in terms of disturbing the grand scheme of things for users or consumers.
Mr. Scott, you spoke earlier about the end of your term and who will succeed you. I will ask you a question that I asked the minister this week in the House.
The job offer or call for applications to find your successor, states that knowledge of both official languages would be preferred. I will spare you my opinion because you know very well where I stand on this, but I'd like to know what you think.
Would it be appropriate for the chairperson of the CRTC not to be fluent in both official languages?
7:40 p.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
It's my responsibility as CEO of the CRTC to participate in all meetings in both official languages. My entire staff can always choose to speak to me in English or French. We conduct all our meetings in both official languages.
In terms of direct contact, I held weekly meetings, and I would alternate between the two languages, one week in English, the other week in French. We always strive to—
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Mr. Scott. Maybe you can elaborate on that with the next questioner, which is going to be, for the NDP, Peter Julian.
Go ahead for six minutes, Peter.
7:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would like to apologize to our witnesses as well. We wanted to have you come forward to answer these questions, and for the life of me, I can't understand why a member of Parliament would block public officials from answering questions from a parliamentary committee. It just doesn't make sense. We appreciate your patience and the fact that you have waited more than two hours to answer our questions.
I want to start off with you, Mr. Scott. You said in your testimony on May 18, “We have never interfered in individual content.” You also referenced that, under the Broadcasting Act, speaking of user-generated content, “We could do any of those things today under the Broadcasting Act”, and also said that, “As constructed, there is a provision that would allow us to” put in place regulations—I think that's filling in your comment—to do as required in C-11.
My question is this. Since you have never interfered in individual content even though you believe you have the ability to do those things under the Broadcasting Act, what might have changed in Bill C-11, or do you see it as a similar situation, in which the CRTC would not choose to use any of the powers given to it?