Canadian Heritage Committee on May 31st, 2022

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Coteau.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Through you, I would like to thank the witnesses as well for being here today.

I think so far today we've established that Oorbee Roy will not have to send her skateboarding videos to you to be approved before she can post them online, and I thank you for that clarification.

I would like to ask you a little bit more about discoverability. We've also heard from detractors that making Canadian content more discoverable will take away people's ability to find other things online, so if they're being directed to Canadian content, they won't find the things they really want to watch. I'm wondering if you can address that.

[Ian Scott]

To be honest, I find the statement kind of confusing. Today, there is a plethora of content available to Canadians, whether foreign or domestic, whether it is on a subscription service or through YouTube or simply from searching on the Internet. People will find the content they wish to watch. What we're talking about in the context of discoverability is taking measures that are reasonable to help Canadians find Canadian stories. Just as you can put in that you're interested in watching mysteries if you're watching Netflix and then you'll get choices of mysteries, you ought to be able to easily find Canadian stories. I don't think it takes away choice or confuses consumers. They're sophisticated. They're looking for the kinds of programming they want. We just want to make sure Canadians—when they want to—can find Canadian stories.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

We know that algorithms are a key part of platforms' value propositions. Are you going to tell the platforms how to make Canadian content discoverable?

[Ian Scott]

The short answer is no. That's not how we do it. Again, I'll go back, and I'm sorry that I'm repeating myself. It's about outcomes. What I would imagine we might say is, “Great, Netflix, you're already doing this. Can you do it more? Can you do it better? Can you help Canadians find Canadian stories?” That's the kind of regulation and the kind of approach the commission would typically take. The commission staff will have proceedings and develop recommendations. Members will decide in the future, but that's generally what we're trying to do and the way we do it. We don't want to prescribe rules. We want to incentivize and allow for certain outcomes to happen, and that would be one of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Scott.

Ms. Hepfner, your time is now up.

I will go to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Julian will end this round because we're coming to the end of the hour. Thank you.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

That last part about discoverability was really fascinating, Mr. Scott.

The CRTC's approach to broadcasters and the industry is not to impose ways of doing things, but to suggest improvements. It's to establish procedures so everyone can achieve better results.

Going back to what we were saying earlier about YouTubers and TikTokers not benefiting from this, not being affected by this, they are in fact saying they will be penalized and that their content won't be recognized as content created by Canadians.

Once again, are digital content creators, the people we're talking about, the ones who will need to be showcased when asking the platforms to show more Canadian content?

[Scott Hutton]

There are many definitions of what constitutes Canadian content. When it comes to a piece of music, the CRTC has a mechanism—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm sorry for interrupting you. I have very little time, and I'd like to clarify my question. I'm talking about people who produce videos. Earlier, we talked about a woman who skateboarded. Others post recipe videos, for example.

Do you think the content made by these people could be considered Canadian content that would be subject to discoverability regulations or guidelines?

[Scott Hutton]

One of the key objectives of the act is essentially that Canadians who produce Canadian content be promoted and discovered by Canadians on these platforms.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Several groups are asking us to reinstate the remedy of the Governor in Council. Under subclause 18(1) and 28(1) of the bill, amendments are proposed to the act to allow for a challenge to a CRTC decision that is contrary to the objectives.

If this is not reflected in the act, are there other ways for groups and citizens to challenge a CRTC decision?

[Ian Scott]

Ms. Frenette, I'll let you answer that question.

[Rachelle Frenette]

The CRTC is an administrative tribunal, and its decisions can be challenged through a right of appeal under the Broadcasting Act or they can be subject to judicial review. Certain decisions can be appealed to the Governor in Council. There are, however, several avenues available to a party who is dissatisfied with a CRTC decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we go to Mr. Julian for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Some of the things that have come up in the hearings are the exclusion and discrimination currently taking place with online streaming companies. OUTtv in testimony talked about online streaming companies basically refusing to carry them, so I want to hear your comments on the CRTC in terms of accessibility or exclusion or discrimination.

How would the CRTC handle those kinds of cases? Currently online streaming companies are not subject to any sort of oversight. How would that change with Bill C-11?

[Ian Scott]

First of all, whatever we did would be subject to public proceedings, in which we would receive evidence and views on how best to achieve it. Currently we have what is called paragraph 9(1)(h), which involves mandatory carriage. There could be equivalent kinds of conditions of service that could be used following a process, if that were the ultimate decision, to ensure that kind of content, whether it be indigenous content or content for racialized Canadians, ethnic groups, LGBTQ+ or otherwise. There are important elements of the broader objectives of the Broadcasting Act, and we will look at various measures to do so.

I don't want to go on too long, but one quick point I would make is about where we won't have symmetry. We can deal with mediation and arbitration with respect to licensees, but the act does not contemplate that in the case of online providers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That's an important thing the committee has to look at in terms of amendments.

On the definition of Canadian content—Mr. Champoux asked that question—we've had testimony. Turning Red, a quintessential Canadian film from Pixar—I saw it on the plane coming up—is not defined as Canadian. Is defining Canadian content in a way that allows Canadian content creators to benefit something the CRTC has to engage in?

[Ian Scott]

For once, I'll be brief: Yes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, so that is part of where the CRTC sees itself.

That is important.

[Ian Scott]

It will be an important part of—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You're committing to looking at Canadian content rules in a way that is much more open and accepting—

[Ian Scott]

As part of an overall regulatory scheme, it will be necessary and important to develop definitions about what Canadian content is both for audio and for audiovisual.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Peter. We will end there.

We've come to the end of this panel. I want to thank the CRTC for their patience and for waiting for the length of time that they waited before they could come on. I want to thank them for staying and for being so very open and honest with us on this panel.

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Scott.

[Ian Scott]

I was going to say thank you, Madam Chair. It's our pleasure. We are here to try to help the committee's work, and we're happy to appear.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now I will suspend, while we get to the second panel. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we shall begin this hour.

We have witnesses with us, starting with Pierre Karl Péladeau, from Quebecor Media Inc., along with Peggy Tabet, who are in the room. As individuals, we have Sara Bannerman, Canada research chair in communication policy and governance and associate professor at McMaster University, and Gordon Sinclair. We then go to the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, with John Morgan Lewis, international vice-president and director of Canadian affairs; Wendy Noss, president of Motion Picture Association-Canada; Netflix, represented by Stéphane Cardin, director of public policy; and YouTube, with Jeanette Patell, head of Canada government affairs and public policy.

I would like to give you just a quick overview of what we're going to do. Each organization has five minutes. I will give you a 30-second warning when you get to within 30 seconds of the time. If you have more than one person in your association, you can work out how you use your five minutes. Also, that's going to be followed by a question and answer period, which may not be a very long one today, given the time.

I shall begin with Quebecor Media and Monsieur Péladeau, who will be speaking for five minutes, please.