Canadian Heritage Committee on June 1st, 2022

[Joan Jenkinson]

We don't believe they'll be excluded from online platforms in the same way, certainly.

What we are saying, again, is that we want to ensure there's funding in the system for content that is beyond user-generated content, and that we have the choice, in the broadcast system, to have higher-budget content made by Black content creators.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You mentioned the fact that unregulated online platforms may not provide the same space. Did I misunderstand your testimony?

[Joan Jenkinson]

We're saying that we don't think we should rely solely on online platforms to give us diversity in the system, such that under-represented groups would have to be relegated there to find their content. That diversity in the system is not satisfied solely by user-generated content. We also want to ensure there's money in the system to make content—dramas, comedies and documentaries—that large numbers of people want to see. We want to ensure there's funding in the system for Black content creators to make that content. Again, it's a matter of choice. That's not to say we wouldn't be in either place. We need both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Jenkinson.

Thank you, Peter.

We're now moving into a five-minute round.

We will begin with the Conservatives for five minutes.

Mrs. Thomas, please go ahead.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

J.J., my questions are for you.

Many witnesses have come to this table—many with us here today—who believe we can classify them as traditional artists, I think. They believe we should rush this bill through the House of Commons.

I think it's important to note that most of the witnesses and stakeholders in favour of this legislation would benefit financially, if it passed. There is money that goes into something called the art fund. Those who contribute to it do so to the tune of 30% of their revenue. Of course, traditional artists can pull from that fund, but digital artists cannot. Traditional artists have everything to gain and digital artists have a lot to lose.

Do you agree with this observation? If so, can you comment on the damage this might cause to those who are digital first creators?

[J.J. McCullough]

Yes, that's a good observation.

I must say that listening to the other witnesses and hearing their testimony, it really makes me wish that we could just erect this big wall between old media and new media. I, as a new media creator, do not want to live in the world of old media. There's so much regulation. They have all of these financing issues. They want these subsidies. They opt in to these funding pools like you're alluding to, then they have all of these requirements for CanCon that they have to navigate. No offence to anyone, but it just seems like such a stressful, painful, difficult world.

In the new media world, which is much more dynamic, we're all independent. We're self-employed. We don't deal with government, and we don't have to have huge teams of lawyers to navigate all of these media regulations. If we feel like working with Americans, we just do and we don't have a big existential crisis about it. We've been very successful.

I prattled off that there are over 100 Canadian YouTubers with 3.5 million subscribers and over a billion video views. Initially, I wanted that statistic to be how many YouTubers there are with over a million subscribers, but the fact is that list is so long that Social Blade doesn't let you read it all.

We've been successful. So many of these self-employed, independent YouTubers in Canada have had tremendously successful careers as content creators, telling the stories that they want to tell, thriving, succeeding and becoming some of the biggest celebrities in the world.

I sometimes give speeches at elementary schools, because all of the kids want to see a YouTuber. They want to see what it's like. They all dream of that being their career. They want to be YouTubers as well. I say to them and their parents that it's a completely viable career path. All it takes to be a successful Canadian YouTuber is to have drive, initiative and self-discipline.

I don't have to live in the world that these other folks do, where it's all about regulations, navigating regulations and opting in to funding and all of this kind of stuff. We get our money from our advertisers. It's based on our ability to produce content that the masses want to watch—not only Canadians but a global audience. No Canadian YouTuber is successful just by appealing to Canadians. They are successful because they appeal to a global audience. That is the way that media works in the 21st century.

I make videos about Canadian stuff. I make videos about Canadian history, Wilfrid Laurier, politics and all of these sorts of things. International audiences eat this stuff up. They love it. They love to learn about Canada. I meet people on the street who say that they've moved to Canada because of my videos. It's remarkable.

I just think there needs to be a little bit more appreciation for how dynamic, exciting, entrepreneurial and prosperous this world of new media content creation is in this country. I think this committee and the House of Commons need not rush through a bill that could possibly inflict great damage on this dynamic, vibrant chunk of not only the Canadian economy but of the Canadian cultural industry in particular.

If we want to continue to regulate the old media and deal with that, that's fine. Just leave us out of it. That's my statement to this committee.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Very quickly, you're saying that Canadians are very successful in being able to reach a global audience. Obviously they depend on that. What will Bill C-11 do to that ability?

[J.J. McCullough]

It seems to me that the agenda here is to try to make Canadian content creators produce a certain kind of content for Canadian domestic consumption entirely. If I understand the agenda that's being articulated here, it's that the goal of the government, Parliament, is to create mandates for Canadian creators like me to make more explicitly Canadian content for a Canadian audience exclusively. It's the reigning consensus that dictates our existing CanCon regime when it comes to Canadian television, radio and all of that kind of thing. The idea is that government has to set down an explicit set of identifiers of what Canadian content is, and those identifiers are being done ostensibly for the benefit of a narrow Canadian audience that is determined to benefit from CanCon, with a capital C.

In my world, we make content with a global audience in mind. Canadians are part of the globe, so Canadians are certainly part of that consumer base, but they're not exclusively the only people we're targeting.

I think if you create a new regulatory system, you're essentially boxing in new media creators. You're saying that you know they had global ambitions, but now you want them to dramatically narrow their ambitions and only target Canadians, exist in this rarified, walled garden, and only appeal to other Canadians, which will dramatically shrink their revenue and appeal, and frankly will shrink the influence of Canadian cultural creators globally.

It is a good thing that Canadian content creators in the new media space are able to appeal to a global audience. As I said, my own life is a case study of this. I have introduced the world to Canada. I have made many foreign people interested in Canada and Canadian affairs, as I've said, even to the point where they've wanted to move here.

I think we have to be very sensitive to the idea that we live in a globalized world now. New media offers unprecedented global reach. We need to, I think, at least when it comes to new media, get away from this idea that Canadian content creators only exist for the benefit of Canadians. We exist for the benefit of the world.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. I think your time is up.

I now move to the Liberals for five minutes with Mr. Bittle.

Chris.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

It's interesting that we hear about it being a viable industry when we heard testimony earlier in the week that 75% of eligible YouTubers make zero dollars and of the remaining 25%, 60% of those make less than $10,000.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Chris, you're one of those.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Madam Chair, Ms. Thomas is interrupting me. I know she was quite upset about it last week, but I'm about to ask witnesses questions. I'm hoping my time could be restarted, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right, I shall stop this minute.

Please, it would be nice if we respected each other when we have our time to question witnesses.

Mr. Bittle, please continue. You have the floor.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank Ms. Thomas for her sudden interest. I know she's been talking through most of the witnesses, but it's nice she's paying attention right now.

I will go to the CMPA. I was wondering if you could speak to the presence of traditional artists on digital platforms, where we're hearing about this wall in these two worlds. I was wondering if you could speak to that.

[Reynolds Mastin]

This has been a very interesting dialogue so far. I think it gives all of us opportunities to correct misapprehensions across the divide.

I just want to point out, first of all, that Canadian producers have always been globally focused, and the reason for that is that the production of professional content costs a lot of money. It employs a lot of highly skilled people, and they're well paid to contribute to Canadian programming. As a result, in order to raise the budget for those shows it's necessary and always has been necessary to go into the international marketplace and find partners.

Usually what that results in is the show being broadcast and distributed in all kinds of markets around the world. I could give you a very long list of Canadian shows that are broadcast and have incredible audience numbers in literally hundreds of markets around the world. It's never been the case that the so-called traditional Canadian production or media industry has only been Canada-focused even though, of course, we are very proud to serve Canadian audiences, to be rooted in this country and to employ the tens of thousands of creators and creative workers whom we do.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much.

We heard from Jérôme Payette last week that streaming and social media platforms aren't neutral. They choose winners and losers. I'm wondering if you could speak to that.

[Reynolds Mastin]

Mr. Payette is a member of the Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions. Unlike Mr. Payette, the CMPA and our members, because overwhelmingly our business is conducted with Canadian broadcasters and streaming platforms, we don't have the same level of expertise as Mr. Payette or the coalition does on how social media platforms operate their businesses or how best they should be regulated, but certainly the coalition does have that deep expertise. We are a member of that coalition and we take guidance from them and support their submissions in this regard.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

How do we ensure that we aren't a branch plant for a cultural economy, a “rip it and ship it” based economy, so that Canadians benefit but industry retains its value?

[Catherine Winder]

Can I jump in here, Reynolds?

[Reynolds Mastin]

Absolutely.

[Catherine Winder]

That's back to IP ownership and ensuring that Canadians retain the IP that they've invested in that tells Canadian stories and global stories. I want to point out that everything we do as a company here is globally focused. We build global audiences and produce massive global brands.

I'd like to tell you a story to the point of the potential of becoming more of a factory per se.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute.

[Catherine Winder]

Recently, we had a streamer make an offer for one of our properties. The deal was typical of those offered by the streamers, by the major studios today, whereby we had to give up all of our global distribution rights, our format rights and essentially full creative control to get our show made. In return, we were offered a relatively small participation and a decent production service fee. While we invested heavily in the development of the project and were bringing some of the shows financing to the table through our tax credits, the studio did not recognize these financial contributions as warranting the retention of any meaningful share of our rights.

The challenge we faced, as do many independent producers, is that our potential U.S. partners had taken the position that the government incentives are not for the benefit of building the Canadian industry, but rather to help finance their content libraries.

Given that most producers do not have the resources to push back, precedents have been set where this has become the norm, and we have little or no leverage. Based on the proposed structure—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry.

I now go to the Bloc Québécois and Martin Champoux for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is for Ms. Moses, from Bell Canada Enterprises.

We talked earlier about Bell's activities in television, but it also has important activities in radio. Bell owns a number of radio stations, especially in Quebec. That is what I want to talk to you about.

A recent ADISQ survey of 4,003 respondents provides a lot of very useful data. I do not know if you are familiar with this survey. It found that 90% of respondents in Quebec consider it important for the government to protect Quebec culture.

As to promoting Quebec music, 70% of those who use online listening services stated that they like the fact that those services offer French-language music from Quebec.

Moreover, 67% of respondents believed that the government should create legislation requiring all online music platforms—Apple Music, Spotify, YouTube, and so forth—to promote French-language music from Quebec.

Ms. Moses, Bell and its radio stations are subject to French-language music quotas set by the CRTC. Do you think these quotas are effective for the promotion of French-language content from Quebec?

Moreover, do you think it would also be beneficial if these quotas applied to online platforms?