Canadian Heritage Committee on June 14th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I also wanted to say that this meeting is pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, May 12, 2022, and to government motion 16 adopted by the House of Commons on Monday, June 13, 2022. The committee is resuming clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-11, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts.

You know everything about how to mute and those on the floor wearing masks, etc., so I will just reiterate that I know you know all of that and you know how to get to interpretation, etc.

(On clause 3)

The Chair:

When we left, we had finished CPC-4, and we were going to go to CPC-5.

Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I believe the next few clauses are under Mr. Viersen's name, and I believe he's declining to move the next few and will be going straight to CPC-7.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do I have unanimous consent from the committee for Mr. Viersen to withdraw those amendments?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just wanted to specify that I don't believe you require unanimous consent if the mover withdraws the amendment. I think this will be very relevant later on in the evening, which is why I'm raising it now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'll go to the clerk, but I do think that you require unanimous consent if someone wants to withdraw a motion on an amendment.

Mr. Méla.

[Philippe Méla, Legislative Clerk]

Indeed, you don't need unanimous consent before the amendment is moved. Once the amendment has been moved, then at that point you need unanimous consent to withdraw it. If it's not moved yet, you don't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That's right. He's not moving them. Thank you, Mr. Méla, for that clarification.

We will therefore go straight to CPC-7.

Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Once again I just want to reiterate that the main thrust of this is to prevent sexually explicit material from falling into the hands of children. This is something that we already do on the airwaves. The CRTC is already managing this when it comes to television. We should not allow online platforms to have unlimited access to our children when it comes to pornographic material.

We already manage this when it comes to corner stores as well—bricks and mortar stores. It's ensuring that that would take place online as well, given that the intent of the bill is to level the playing field. I'm not necessarily convinced that's what this bill does, but this, I think, would be an improvement to the bill; therefore, I'm moving it. I think that online sexually explicit material should be regulated in the same way that such material is regulated on paper and also on television.

Those are essentially my comments, and I went over it as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Can you please read your amendment, just for the record?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Sure. I move that Bill C-11, in clause 3, be amended by adding after line 15 on page 5 the following:

(3.1) Paragraph 3(1)(d) of the act is amended by adding the following after subparagraph (iv):

(v) seek to protect the health and well-being of children by preventing the broadcasting to children of programs that include sexually explicit content, and

(vi) safeguard the human rights of women and marginalized people by preventing the broadcasting of programs that include pornographic material that is produced through sexual exploitation or coercion;

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We will move to discussion of that amendment.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm going to support CPC-7, but I want to be clear as well.

In Bill C-11, there is no provision for censorship and there's no shutting down of freedom of speech. We all know that. There have been certain Conservative MPs, like Mr. Scheer, who've tried to pretend the contrary, but we all know, and anyone who has read the bill knows, that you cannot refer to censorship when it comes to Bill C-11.

This, however, and it's a little ironic, is a Conservative amendment that does introduce an element of censorship. It prevents the broadcasting to children of programs that include sexually explicit content, and it prevents the broadcasting of programs that include pornographic material that is produced through sexual exploitation or coercion.

I want to be clear to committee members. This is the only element of Bill C-11 that introduces censorship. It is ironic that the Conservatives have proposed this amendment, but I support it because, in this case, the censorship, the preventing of broadcasting, is in the public interest.

I want to say that I'll be voting in favour. I believe that the public interest is upheld through this. Committee members, and anyone who is watching this committee through the House of Commons web broadcast, should know that this introduces an element of censorship for the first time to Bill C-11, and it's Conservatives who have introduced this amendment.

I'm supporting it because it is in the public interest, but those who say that Bill C-11 has some censorship in it will finally be right, because if this amendment passes, it does introduce an element of censorship into the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I have a question for Mr. Ripley.

If this passes, would it essentially mean that an online platform like Netflix, for example, which may have a movie that is sexually explicit, would be prevented from providing that type of material if young people have access to Netflix?

[Thomas Owen Ripley, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To situate where this amendment is taking place, it would be taking place in the policy objectives of the act, along with other policy objectives that are set out. Then it goes over to the CRTC to operationalize that through various mechanisms.

There is a degree of action already in this space with respect to adult channels that may appear on cable or satellite packages. The CRTC has put in place certain measures with respect to those channels that require certain things of them given the type of explicit content that they are distributing. That is traditionally done in the legacy broadcasting system by working with industry associations to develop broadcast codes and standards.

My expectation in terms of what would happen if these amendments were to pass is that the CRTC would look at them, probably to the extent that those codes already cover these kinds of issues. To the extent that there are gaps, it would probably work through its industry associations to adapt the codes as required. That can include things like user interfaces designed for children, and it includes classification of programming and all those types of measures.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It sounds like what would happen would be Netflix, for example, if it has sexual content on its platform, would just look for ways to prevent access by younger people, of course. There are age restrictions on Prime, for example, so you have to put in a code if it's above a certain level.

Is that the type of stuff we're talking about? Could it actually be interpreted in such a way as to remove that content from an online platform, so no one would have access to it?

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

We're talking about subparagraph (v), which is about protecting the health and well-being of children by preventing the broadcasting to children of certain programs. Again, I would expect the kind of space we would be in with a service like Netflix would be a discussion around the protections they have to make sure that children cannot stumble onto content that would include sexually explicit material, such as the interface whereby you set your kid up and they click through, for example.

My read is that it does not mandate the CRTC to prohibit, for example, Netflix—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That's right, so we're not talking about censorship overall, for everyone. We're talking about preventative methods to stop children from accessing material.

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

Yes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

Mr. Housefather has his hand up.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes. Thank you very much—

[The Clerk, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

In fact, Mr. Champoux had raised his hand before Mr. Housefather. I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry. I was muted.

I think it's Mr. Champoux and then Mr. Housefather.

[The Clerk, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

You're absolutely correct, Dr. Fry.