Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 7th, 2022

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to say from the outset that I share the minister's strong disappointment with the CRTC's comments that were reported today. This organization, CMAC, and Mr. Marouf should not be funded by anyone or any agency at all, so I appreciate the minister's comments with respect to that.

As someone who has been involved since 2015 on this anti-Semitism issue, whether with respect to the apology about the St. Louis, with respect to the nomination of Irwin Cotler as our special envoy on anti-Semitism, with respect to the decision to adopt the IHRA definition and implement it across government, or with respect to the decision to criminalize Holocaust denial and supporting that—which was originally a motion from our colleague Mr. Waugh that became part of the budget implementation bill—I think we've had a very strong record as a government and across party lines in fighting anti-Semitism in this country. That is why this situation was so disappointing.

Minister, I appreciate your efforts to take responsibility and say that you're going to get this problem fixed now on the due diligence side, on the contractual side and on the training side, because those are all really important. I want to ask a couple of questions about that.

First, though, there are many members of Canada's Jewish community who feel, for whatever reason, that anti-Semitism is not treated on par with other forms of racism. Can you reassure Canadians, particularly the Jewish community, that you believe anti-Semitism is just as important as any other form of racism or phobia in this country?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you very much for the question, MP Housefather, and thank you for your work on this really important issue, both as an individual before entering public life and now.

As the minister responsible, on behalf of the government, I can state unequivocally that combatting anti-Semitism and combatting hate against Jewish Canadians are absolutely a priority for our government. We have taken a number of steps in that regard and we will continue to be a strong champion in the fight against anti-Semitism in this country.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Minister. I appreciate that. I think many people don't know your past history before being elected of working with CIJA and working with the Jewish community to fight anti-Semitism. I think it's important that people know that you were fighting anti-Semitism long before you became a minister.

Let me ask a second question.

My colleague Mr. Julian talked about the vetting procedure, which is very important. Equally important is the training. I was very pleased to hear that the Jewish Public Servants' Network, which has been complaining to me quite a lot about the lack of coherence about anti-Semitism training in different departments, is going to be part of this process. We can use this as an opportunity to create the best anti-Semitism and other forms of racism training, which you can then implement not only in your department, but across departments, which is excellent.

I want to get to the question of the attestation and the contract, because one of the problems here was that the termination clause in the existing contract didn't allow you the immediate opportunity to terminate the agreement. That's what I'm getting.

Can you talk about what termination rights the minister will now have in the contracts in the event that somebody like Mr. Marouf is found to have made such statements?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Absolutely. Thank you very much, MP Housefather, for that question.

I think you point to a really important lesson in this particular issue, which is that moving forward, we will be able to move more swiftly to immediately to cut funding and make sure that we terminate contracts. That is part of the enhanced agreement. That is also part of introducing a new item with, namely, an attestation that will proactively require applicants to commit to the standards of the Canadian Human Rights Act and to the anti-racism framework.

I just want to add, with regard to MP Nater's last question, because I ran out of time, that I understand that the officials will be able to provide information to him with respect to his last question. I just want to clarify that.

In terms of powers in addition to terminating more quickly, there will be language in the agreement to enhance the ability of the government to move more quickly, and to put an attestation to applicants so they're able to proactively commit to live by the standards expected of them with respect to making sure their organization—including any consultant, employee, partner, or anybody associated with it—cannot engage in racist, anti-Semitic or hateful behaviour or comments against Black Canadians or francophone community members, and that if that happens, we can take quick action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm now going to Martin Champoux.

You have two and a half minutes, Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, on September 12, you stated in an interview with the National Post that the incident involving Laith Marouf was a system failure. On that day, you announced that a host of measures would be put in place to prevent it from happening again. Reading these measures, one thinks that common sense would dictate that they should already have been in place, especially for the implementation of a program like the one you wanted to put in place at that time with Mr. Marouf's company.

What measures were in place before this incident? How was the due diligence carried out on companies that were entrusted with large sums of public money to go and provide training on such sensitive issues as anti-racism or anti-Semitism?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That's a very good question. Thank you very much for this important question.

My expectation was that the measures in place at that time would have included robust vetting and due diligence measures and steps to ensure that this individual and organization would not go through the cracks.

Now we're introducing a new vetting process to ensure, for example, that there is enhanced vetting training for program officers and ensure that multiple officials review each and every application so that mistakes can be caught, and to ensure that there is enhanced anti-racism and anti-Semitism training for all program officers.

To develop this training, we're turning to the experts, people like the Honourable Irwin Cotler, the special envoy to combat anti-Semitism, Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center, and the Jewish Public Servants' Network to develop this program.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Earlier, you spoke of your commitment to combat francophobic comments, such as those made by Mr. Marouf. In this process, do you intend to include people from the francophone community from anywhere in Canada, people who are concerned?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Yes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I take this as another commitment from you, Minister, and I am grateful.

After this incident involving the Community Media Advocacy Centre, have you reviewed all other contracts awarded to similar organizations? Have you reviewed the due diligence assessment of other organizations you have awarded contracts to?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member. That's a really important question.

When we identified the vetting process failure in this case, we followed up with the Department of Canadian Heritage to ensure there was no other case like this. I have instructed the department to put all funding requests on hold until a new enhanced vetting process is in place.

Let me be absolutely clear to the member, as well as to all the committee members, that if any other similar case comes to my attention, we will act swiftly to cut off funding and hold the organization accountable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I now go to Peter Julian for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, you just said that if any further cases come to your attention, but that indicates to me that you are not systematically going through the current organizations that are receiving funding to make sure—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That's not what I said, sir.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

—there is no social media screen to ensure that—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

That's not what I said, sir.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

—there aren't these types of social media comments taking place on behalf of other organizations.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

No, that's not what I said, sir.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You said that if it comes to your attention.... Is the department right now verifying each of the current recipients of the program?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

What I can assure you, Mr. Julian, is that we are putting in place enhanced vetting and due diligence processes, and multiple layers of checks—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That's not my question.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

—of different officials to make sure that hateful comments such as those made by this individual and CMAC can be caught, and that we can address this, move faster, cut funding quicker, and terminate contracts faster. I'm actually trying to answer your question, Mr. Julian.

That's the new process that will be in place in addition to more enhanced vetting and training in anti-Semitism, anti-racism, hateful behaviour, discrimination against Black Canadians, with francophone community members and so on—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Excuse me for interrupting, but I don't have much time. It is obvious from your answer that you have not done this check with the organizations that are already in place.

The anti-Semitism and attacks on French speakers that have taken place have gone unanswered. I have two questions about this.

Firstly, has there ever been a requirement for organizations to attest that no hate speech is made within them?

Secondly, even under the previous regime, you had the power to conduct a thorough audit of the expenditures of these organizations. Has such an audit ever been done in the case of CMAC?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Peter.

We can't answer that question. We have nine seconds left and the minister must leave at two o'clock. I think he's going to be generous and give us an extra three minutes or so because of the pauses, etc.

I will now go to Mrs. Thomas for the Conservatives for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, I do appreciate your taking the time to be here today. I did make note of a few comments that were made during our time here with regard to questions that were asked by members of my party, but also other members at the table.

Namely, it wasn't until August 21 that we saw any sort of comment made by you with regard to the conduct of Mr. Marouf. So, August 21 was when we first saw you come out on this. Even then your statement was quite pat. You said you were “working to rectify this matter”. There was not even a statement of strong condemnation or making it clear as to where you stood as an individual, as a minister, or where your government stood.

Further to that, there was no statement made by Minister Rodriguez, who oversees the heritage department. There was no statement made by the Prime Minister, Mr. Trudeau himself. There was no statement made by any other member with the exception of Mr. Anthony Housefather, who brought this to your attention long before. In fact, you just told this committee that this issue was brought to your attention on July 19 or 20. That was when you first became aware of this issue. You did not make a statement until August 21.

Again, that statement had nothing to do with taking accountability or responsibility for this matter, but rather just simply saying that you would basically look into it. Then, of course, things continued to escalate from there.

Now in front of this committee you continue to refuse to take responsibility or to be held accountable. Instead, you're wanting to put the problem onto the vetting system—it's the system's problem. You're saying that the system will somehow be fixed. You haven't exactly walked us through what that's going to look like, nor do we really have time for that today, but I would welcome you to table that for the committee to take a look at. Nevertheless, you are skirting the issue once again and saying that it is the system's fault.

It is not the system's fault. It failed, yes, but today you as the minister are before this committee because it was your responsibility to act when you became aware of what was going on. Your first point of action should have been to condemn the racist and anti-Semitic actions of Mr. Marouf—