Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Would you say that you've reached 50% of the amount you're willing to contribute? Are we going to see that number double to 300? Is there any type of long-term goal that you have? Do you want to double that number?

[Colin McKay]

The long-term goal for us is to work with journalism organizations to ensure their vitality and continued contribution to Canadian society. It's an underlying principle of ours because it's essential to both our services and the expectations of customers.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Of the 150 publishers you have these secret deals with—these deals that are not open to the public—is there a range? Can you tell us what the smallest amount and the largest amount would be?

[Colin McKay]

I'm afraid not, but I would like to point out that they are commercial agreements. As in any industry, commercial agreements are between two parties and are normally kept confidential. As has been discussed, the CRTC will have an oversight role, but—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I want to keep asking my questions. I don't want to go into the CRTC piece. Maybe someone else will ask you this.

Would you agree that news is part of the public good?

[Colin McKay]

Yes, definitely.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay. I think most people would agree that it's part of the public good.

Would you agree that...? These types of relationships are commercial and sensitive, but do you think eventually Canadians would be privy to this type of information? How much are Google and Facebook actually contributing to these news companies, these publishers?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Please answer quickly, Mr. McKay, as there are only a few seconds left.

[Colin McKay]

This bill will not address the question you're identifying or the problem you're identifying. It will not grant transparency to these deals.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

At the end of the day—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I'm sorry, Mr. Coteau, but your speaking time is up.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mr. Coteau.

I have a little note for the witnesses in the room: you don't need to do anything with the microphones, because the technician looks after turning them on at the right time.

I will now take my turn to speak, if I may.

My question is for Mr. McKay.

If Bill C‑18 passes, how much will it cost me, as a member of the public or a consumer, to access a page via Google? Would there be a charge to me?

[Colin McKay]

As a member of the public?

It's free.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Right.

You characterize Google as a bulwark against misinformation. We often hear you say that Bill C‑18 could open the door to misinformation. This week, we all received the results of a survey you commissioned from Abacus Data. I find some of the questions commissioned by Google for that survey a little perplexing, in terms of your determination to combat misinformation.

One of the questions asked concerns the sweeping powers the CRTC would supposedly have over the media industry and media content if Bill C‑18 were passed.

Did the questions you asked in that survey clearly explain what the powers of the CRTC are? If you were able to do that, you are better than us, because we still do not know what powers the CRTC is going to have, precisely, if Bill C‑18 is passed.

What was the precise question you asked that enabled you to reach the conclusion that 70% of people are worried about the sweeping powers the CRTC would have? Can you tell me what the question was?

[Colin McKay]

The concern that Canadians reflected in that survey—which is a snapshot in time—is reflective of our concerns about the legislation not having detail that provides us with certainty of the impact this legislation will have on the availability of information and the amplification of disinformation for Canadians.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

So it is not necessarily a concern on the part of Canadians; it is a concern on the part of Google that emerges from the results of that survey, which suggests that it is Canadians who are concerned.

I have another question. I asked you earlier how much it would cost me, as a member of the public, to access a page via Google. In your survey, you asked a question with the result that Canadians are certainly not inclined to pay fees, even minimal ones, to access a page via Google. What was the question that you put to Canadians in your survey to suggest to them that they would have to pay to access web pages via Google?

I am trying to understand, because you say you want to combat misinformation. It seems to me that we have a bit of a dichotomy here.

[Colin McKay]

I can't speak to the exact question. I can make that information available to the committee.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

We would like to receive that information, Mr. McKay, because it is in a survey that you are using to put forward your views on Bill C‑18. I think it is somewhat important that we know exactly how your survey respondents were guided through the process. We would appreciate it. I imagine you understand that this is out of a concern for transparency. We will be eagerly awaiting it.

I will now yield the floor to my colleague Mr. Julian for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, we would really need that information. We all have to combat disinformation. Another member of the committee and I were very disturbed by how Google approached that particular opinion poll. That information would be helpful.

I have a number of short questions, Mr. McKay. I'd like a yes-or-no answer.

Can you confirm that the worldwide income for Google last year was $256.7 billion?

[Colin McKay]

I don't have that number in front of me, unfortunately.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is a staggering amount of money. It's a quarter of a trillion dollars.

Can you confirm, as well, that Google vehemently opposed the bill that was put in place in Australia, which is working very well and serves as a model for the bill here?

[Colin McKay]

We spoke quite loudly about the need for a workable solution in Australia, which they have landed upon.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

So you confirm that Google opposed that, too. I'm glad that you have confirmed that. That is consistent with positions that Google has taken.

At a previous parliamentary hearing, you were asked about the number of staff and employees that you have cracking down on online hate. We've had concerns levelled against Google around homophobia, racism, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

At the time, you were asked how many full-time staff work in Canada and you weren't able to give that figure. Could you give it to us now?

[Colin McKay]

I don't have a figure for that today. What I can tell you is that we have global teams that deal with this and address any one of these number of issues that are problematic for all of us.