Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

You also talked about some of the other places in the world that have implemented similar systems. I think it's important to always try to learn from the mistakes of others or the learning experiences that they've had. Could you tell me what it is that you didn't like about the Australian system? I think you also mentioned the German system.

Again, that's for Mr. McKay.

[Colin McKay]

For the context of our conversation today, the Australian system produced the expected and desired result. There are contracts that have agreed-upon terms with journalism organizations of all sizes, and the news out of Australia is that this is addressing the public policy challenge in that country.

That should be the outcome of Bill C-18, which we're considering today, and our suggested amendments seek to resolve the undue and unintended consequences of those items that I've identified and other items that we'll include in our submission to the committee to follow shortly.

In the context of other countries, what we see consistently is that if the enforcement mechanism is not thoroughly thought out, and thought out in the context of bad actors, it ends up being gamed and misused by bad actors. That has a negative consequence on the user experience and the discoverability of information, and then also acts in a contrary manner to the public policy goals of the legislation that was originally drafted.

We're very much in favour of this sort of conversation and continued deliberation about how to perfect Bill C-18 to arrive at our shared goals.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

In fact, when we talk about the Australian situation, I noticed that at the beginning Facebook or Meta had actually blocked all the Australian content. I didn't see them in the list of witnesses, and there were a number of other witnesses I didn't see.

I would like to move a motion that the committee have a minimum of three additional meetings to hear from witnesses on Bill C-18, with one of those meetings being with the Minister of Canadian Heritage, and that the committee does not move to clause-by-clause until the completion of these three meetings.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you.

Do you want us to debate your motion now, Ms. Gladu?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I think that, because freedom of the press—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Just a moment, Ms. Gladu. Mr. Julian has a point of order.

The floor is yours, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

We saw this just before the break, as well, Mr. Chair, where the Conservatives sabotaged the hearings, so we couldn't get final answers. I think it's profoundly disrespectful. There's still another member of our committee who wanted to ask questions.

I would ask Ms. Gladu simply to table her motion, so that we can complete questioning witnesses. Then, of course, we have committee business already scheduled.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you.

Ms. Gladu, I will add that the question you are proposing, to add meetings, falls under committee business, which we will be addressing in camera after hearing the witnesses.

Do you still want your motion to be put to the committee and for us to discuss it right away or do you think we could just table the motion and discuss it a little later?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

My concern is that we're going to go in camera. I want to hear the discussion in the public realm, because I think we need to hear from the Minister of Canadian Heritage. That is normal for bills that would come before our committee. I would like to see Facebook or Meta come forward, as well. And where's the CRTC?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Right.

On the list of people who want to speak we have Ms. Thomas, Mr. Bittle, Mr. Julian, and Mr. Waugh, I believe.

Ms. Thomas, the floor is yours.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

First off, I want to thank the witnesses for being here. I do recognize that we are in the last four-minute stretch of this meeting before moving on to committee business.

The reason why it was so important to move this motion now.... I think we've been rather accommodating to the committee, waiting until the last four minutes. The reason why that's important.... There are discussions that can be had behind closed doors, in camera, in order to protect the identity of certain individuals. That is appropriate. At the same time, there are other discussions that should take place in the public domain for the sake of accountability and transparency. That is most appropriate. In this case, this one does call for a public discussion.

The motion on the table, of course, is asking for three more meetings with regard to Bill C-18 and—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Ms. Thomas, I am going to interrupt you, if I may. We do not have the text of the motion, so it is very difficult for us to follow you. Would it be possible to get the text of the motion? Could you send it to the clerk, please?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Sure. We can make sure that it is sent to the clerk.

Do you want me to pause until you receive it, Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

No, you can continue.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you. We'll make sure that it gets to the clerk right away.

For the benefit of the committee, just to clarify, it's a pretty simple motion. What we're asking for is a minimum of three more meetings with regard to Bill C-18. We're asking that the Minister of Canadian Heritage be a part of one of those meetings, so that we would have an opportunity to hear from him with regard to this piece of legislation. We're asking for this to take place before the committee moves to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill.

I will continue to speak to that.

We've seen a pattern in the past where pieces of legislation have been rushed through without due process. Bill C-11 was one such example, which, if successful, will have a significant impact on the virtual sphere. Bill C-18 will also have a significant impact on news outlets, on publishers, on—

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

The floor is yours, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

It's almost one o'clock. Perhaps we can dismiss the witnesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Absolutely.

Ms. Thomas, I will thank the witnesses, if I may.

Gentlemen, since we have embarked on a discussion of a different kind, we will let you leave. We can then continue the discussion on the motion before the committee.

My sincere thanks for being with us today, and I wish you a pleasant rest of the day.

Ms. Thomas, the floor is yours again.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

The point I really wish to raise is this: With such an important piece of legislation, I do believe that due process is necessary, so we are asking for three more meetings. We're asking for the minister to come forward. That's been established.

The reason for this, which I would like to go into for just a moment here, is this: We've seen in the past that important pieces of legislation have been rushed through the committee without due process, and important witnesses have not been heard from. In this case, Bill C-18 is absolutely a pinnacle. It will forever change the way that news is potentially produced but also how it's accessed. There are many further considerations that need to be given attention. The way we can do that is by hearing from the several dozen witnesses still on the list who have not been called forward, and also from the minister.

One of the reasons it's so important that we hear from the minister—there are a few—is that we actually, just in general, haven't heard from him at this committee at all. It would be normal for a minister to come forward and to speak to his mandate letter. It would be normal for a minister to come forward and speak to the estimates or the budget, and we haven't actually heard from the minister in that capacity. Specifically, the estimates seem like a really good reason for the minister to show up. On this piece of legislation, it would be appropriate for the minister to show up.

My concern is that this committee is going to rush this process. To ensure that that's not the case, but rather that due time and due process are given, we are asking for the support and co-operation of the other members around this table to ensure that, as stated, a minimum of three meetings are given and that the minister is heard from.

Further to that, one of the reasons why it is so important to hear from those other witnesses who are on the list is that a number of them—many of them—have written to the committee and asked for their voices to be heard. It's in a non-partisan capacity, so there's actually a huge opportunity here to engage in co-operation together.

Further to that, yes, there is another list that is more partisan in nature. There are witnesses that Conservatives have put forward. There are witnesses that Liberals have put forward, and the NDP, and the Bloc. Of course, that, again, is due process at a committee: that we would have the opportunity to put forward witnesses, and that we would also have the opportunity to hear from those witnesses.

Again, my concern is that, without this motion, without giving some sort of direction or framework to the time we will spend on Bill C-18, this bill will be rushed through without hearing from this slate of very important voices from all parties, with a variety of angles being held.

For this reason, we would move this motion.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Ms. Thomas.

Mr. Bittle, the floor is yours.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

It's disappointing, again, that we're in this spot where the Conservatives are filibustering. This is an important piece of legislation. We've heard the numbers in terms of media outlets closing. Further delay on this bill can be perilous to media outlets.

The minister is eager to testify, but we need to go into committee business to talk about other issues, including Hockey Canada and sports in general. I think that needs to be done in the way we originally scheduled it. The minister will testify; the minister is eager to testify and has done so before. Mrs. Thomas may not remember because she filibustered through it the last time he appeared.

I move that debate on this motion be adjourned.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Just a moment, please. I am going to take a few seconds to consult the clerk.

The motion before us now, which will be put to a roll-call vote, is to decide whether we will adjourn the debate.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 4.)

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

We will therefore return to our agenda.

I propose that we take a short break, the time for going in camera to continue with the matters on the agenda. The meeting has to end at 1:30.

Do you want to speak, Ms. Thomas?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I have a quick comment on that.

I would propose a motion that we actually stay in public for the business portion of this meeting, rather than going in camera.