Evidence of meeting #48 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore
Ian Scott  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Rachelle Frenette  General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Isabelle Mondou  Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Welcome everybody

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 48 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the House on Tuesday, May 11, 2022, the committee is meeting on the consideration of Bill C-18, an act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House of Commons order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Some members are attending in person and some are attending virtually.

Here are a few comments I'd like to make. I think you all know this by rote, but this might be for the benefit of the witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have a choice, and everyone knows in the room what to do. Those attending virtually have a little round globe at the bottom, which is the icon you press if you want to get your messages in English or French. As a reminder, all comments should be made through the chair.

In accordance with our routine motion, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Before we begin the meeting, there is one small order of business, some housekeeping we need to do. I would like to take a moment and proceed to the election of the new first vice-chair, so I will turn the floor over to the clerk.

1 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Aimée Belmore

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.

I am now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I move that Kevin Waugh be made vice-chair.

1 p.m.

The Clerk

It has been moved by Rachael Thomas that Kevin Waugh be elected first vice-chair of the committee. Are there any further motions?

1 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

I'm sorry; I didn't catch the name.

1 p.m.

The Clerk

It has been moved by Rachael Thomas that Kevin Waugh be elected first vice-chair of the committee.

1 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

He's an honourable man, so sure.

1 p.m.

The Clerk

Are there any further motions?

Seeing none, it has been moved by Rachael Thomas that Kevin Waugh be elected first vice-chair of the Committee.

Pursuant to the House order of November 5, 2021, I will now proceed to a recorded division.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Is it not on consent?

1:05 p.m.

The Clerk

I am really supposed to do a recorded division. I am really sorry. I will move very quickly.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

I want to congratulate our new vice-chair and welcome the new members of the committee.

Kevin, I am so pleased to see you as vice-chair.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have big shoes to fill from Mr. Nater, but I will get help, I know, from Aimée.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

She is very good at helping. Mr. Champoux would attest to that from the last meeting, which I understand he chaired remarkably well.

I would now like to move to the actual order of the day, which is Bill C-18, an act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.

For the first hour, we have the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission. We have Ian Scott, chairperson and chief executive officer; Rachelle Frenette, general counsel and deputy executive director; and Adam Balkovec, legal counsel.

I think the CRTC has gone through this before many times, so whoever is going to be the spokesperson—it is my belief it might be Mr. Scott—has five minutes. I will give you a 30-second shout-out when you have 30 seconds left.

Welcome, Mr. Scott, and please begin.

1:05 p.m.

Ian Scott Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I delighted in your first mistaken introduction when you referred to new witnesses. It made me feel young. I'm not new but familiar, and happy to be here with the members. I appreciate being invited before the committee once more.

You've already introduced my colleagues, who are here to assist me. As I often say, when I need to call a friend, I have my friends with me.

We're very pleased to appear before you. Hopefully we can contribute to your study of Bill C-18.

The proposed legislation aims to address a market imbalance in Canada's digital news marketplace by creating a new legislative and regulatory framework that would ensure that the major digital platforms fairly compensate news publishers for their content.

If it is adopted by Parliament, the Online News Act would require the largest digital platforms to negotiate with news businesses and reach fair commercial deals for the news that is shared on their platforms. Those deals would also need to respect journalistic independence and invest in a diversity of Canadian news outlets, including independent local businesses.

Should Parliament wish to assign the responsibility of creating and overseeing the regulatory framework under the Online News Act to the CRTC, we are prepared to take it on.

The legislation proposes to entrust five main functions to the CRTC.

Specifically, these are, first, to consider requests from news businesses to be eligible for mandatory bargaining and requests from digital platforms to be exempt from mandatory bargaining by applying the act's criteria.

The second is overseeing negotiation and mediation and maintaining a public list of external arbitrators that meet qualifications set by the commission.

The third is that we deal with complaints of undue preference or unjust discrimination filed by eligible news businesses against platforms.

The fourth is to contract an independent auditor to publish an annual report on the total value of commercial agreements and other key information.

Finally, we are to establish regulations, including a code of conduct for good-faith bargaining and regulatory charges that platforms must pay to fund the administration of the act, similar to the fees paid by broadcasters and telecommunications service providers today.

We have, of course, been turning our mind to the implementation of Bill C-18 should it receive royal assent.

There are several areas in which the commission must create regulations, which include developing regulatory charges to operate the program, as well as creating a code of conduct to support fairness and transparency in bargaining. As well, the bill will require the CRTC to establish detailed policies to provide news businesses, platforms and the public with clear guidance on how we intend to apply the eligibility criteria as well as the companion exemption criteria. Finally, we will of course have to create efficient procedures to administer the act.

There will no doubt be challenges along the way, as there always are when developing a new framework. I'm confident that with input from the public, news businesses and platforms, we will collectively develop a public record to assist us in implementing the new legislation, again assuming it's the will of Parliament.

The good news is that the CRTC is experienced in dealing with matters similar to those that Bill C-18 aims to resolve.

Our mandate is to regulate in the communications sector, and we have extensive experience overseeing mediation and arbitration processes, as well as those relating to undue preference complaints and codes of conduct. We also have experience conducting public proceedings, issuing exemption orders, and maintaining ongoing monitoring systems.

Just as importantly, we recognize the opportunities and challenges created by new players and have a proven track record of implementing policies and adapting approaches over time that enable traditional media, including local broadcast news outlets, to respond to changing market conditions.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You have 30 seconds.

1:10 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Ian Scott

The members of this Committee may already be familiar with the Independent Local News Fund. Created by the CRTC in 2016, the fund gives independent television stations across the country access to approximately $23 million in resources.

Madam Chair and members, we'd be happy to answer your questions.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.

Now we begin the question-and-answer segment. That is a six-minute segment. I'm going to begin with Rachael Thomas for the Conservatives .

Mrs. Thomas, you have six minutes, please.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Scott, thank you so much for being with us today and for offering those opening remarks.

Michael Geist has said this with regard to Bill C-18. I'm just going to read his quote into the record. He said:

Bill C-18 doesn't only increase the power of the Internet companies. It also provides exceptional new powers to the CRTC. These include determining which entities qualify as DNIs,

—in other words, digital news intermediaries—

which agreements create an exemption, which Canadian news organizations qualify as eligible news businesses, and whether the arbitration decisions should be approved. On top of that, the CRTC will also create a code of conduct, implement the code, and wield penalty powers for failure to comply. Far from a hands-off approach, the CRTC will instantly become the most powerful market regulator of the news sector in Canada.

Mr. Scott, what's been outlined here is directly in the bill. This is fact.

I'm just wondering if, in your opinion, the CRTC really should be given this amount of control over news in Canada.

1:10 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Ian Scott

Thank you.

The list that you just provided in quoting from Mr. Geist is almost exactly the same as the list that I referred to with respect to the responsibilities that the commission has contemplated performing under the legislation. There's no disagreement there.

The final comment, though, is rather editorial in nature, amounting to saying that therefore we are engaging in some massive regulatory activity. I would profoundly disagree. We are being—

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Can I interrupt, then? If there's no regulation involved in making sure that this long list gets held—

1:15 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Ian Scott

Madam Chair, could I just finish the response?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Yes, sorry. I think it would very courteous of us to allow Mr. Scott to finish his sentence, please.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Ian Scott

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll just say that it is a supervisory role, not an active regulatory role. As you described, yes, we have to fill out certain aspects that are not detailed in the legislation.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay.

It's a supervisory role, but what you're supervising isn't outlined exactly in the legislation. There's actually very great vagueness.

If you're not intending to create regulation, how are you holding entities accountable in your supervision?

1:15 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Ian Scott

The essence of the legislation is to create an environment to permit parties to reach a negotiated outcome.