Thank you, Chair.
Evidence of meeting #48 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #48 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:55 p.m.
Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Thank you, Chair.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I would now like to return to the consideration of Bill C-18, an act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.
Welcome, Minister Rodriguez, and your department officials who are here to answer questions.
As you all know, you have five minutes. I will give you a 30-second shout-out when you have 30 seconds left.
Begin, Minister Rodriguez, for five minutes, please.
October 21st, 2022 / 2 p.m.
Honoré-Mercier Québec
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez LiberalMinister of Canadian Heritage
Thank you, Madam Chair, colleagues and members of the committee.
I'm really happy to have the chance to appear today to talk about the online news act.
I want to start by stating facts.
2 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
I apologize for interrupting the minister, but the interpreters are saying that the sound isn't satisfactory. I don't know if the minister has plugged his headset into the right port on his computer. The sound doesn't seem to be coming from his headset.
2 p.m.
The Clerk
Do you want to suspend for a second while we fix this?
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Yes. I haven't officially said “suspend”, but I have stopped my clock.
Now you may begin, Minister. You have five minutes. Thank you.
2 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
All right.
Madam Chair, colleagues and members of the committee, I'm really happy to have the chance to appear today to talk about the online news act.
As I said, I want to start by stating facts: 468. That's the number of media outlets—newspapers, television, radio stations and news websites—that closed between 2008 and last August. Seventy-eight of them have closed since the beginning of the pandemic. This bill is about them. It's also about the future of journalism in our country.
On the surface, the act is about making sure that news outlets in Canada get fair compensation for the important work they do, but at its core, the act is about so much more than that. It's about upholding our democracy, because our democracy, as any democracy, needs a free, independent and thriving press. We all rely on fact-based and timely news to make rational decisions, counter disinformation and participate in our democracy. In these challenging times, this is more important than ever.
The Internet has fundamentally changed the way we create, search and consume content, especially news. Canadians increasingly get their news from digital platforms. According to a very recent report published by the Reuters Institute this year, 77% of Canadians consume news online, 55% of them from social media. Over the period covered, we can see that our news sector has declined. News is largely disseminated by the platforms, but the businesses that create that news aren't profiting from it as they should.
Currently, there's absolutely no incentive for digital platforms to compensate the media fairly for their content. That has a direct impact on our ability as a society to access reliable news. I said it when we introduced Bill C-18, and I'll say it again today: a free and independent press is one of the pillars of our democracy. It is essential to our democracy.
Canadians rely on their local and national media for an understanding of what's going on in their community and around the world. We're talking here about the very existence and survival of independent journalism. Let me be very clear: Canadian news businesses are in crisis.
Bill C-18 proposes decisive action to stop this decline. It presents a practical, market-based approach that lessens power imbalances and encourages good-faith negotiations. It encourages digital platforms to enter into fair agreements with news organizations.
As you know, these agreements must meet specific criteria. This includes everything from supporting local, regional and national news to upholding freedom of expression and promoting inclusion, innovation and diversity. If they don’t, then—and only then—the act will compel mandatory negotiation, and final offer arbitration will come only as a last resort.
As we've often said, Bill C-18 is based on the Australian model, under which the news media are able to secure fair compensation. We've adopted elements of a model that's already working, and we've improved it by adding other, typically Canadian elements.
Canada is really leading the way, and we're doing it because Canadians expect us to take action to protect their local journalism in a transparent manner. That's also why we publish a list of digital platforms that meet the criteria, a list of exemptions, the reasons why they have been granted, a list of eligible news businesses and so on.
The online news act won’t be a silver bullet for all the challenges the sector faces. As Rod Sims, the former chair of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, said, “the world is watching” Canada. The world is watching us, and I hope we will rise to the occasion.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
We can give Canadian news media a chance to rebuild and thrive in a more sustainable, fairer news ecosystem, and we’ll do everything we can to give Canadians access to the fair, impartial, fact-based and high-quality news we want and need. Together, we can fight for a vibrant, free and independent press and fight for our democracy.
Thank you for your work, and I am now ready to answer your questions.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much, Minister.
We are now going to the first round, which is a six-minute round.
As always, I will yell “30 seconds” when you have 30 seconds left.
We did not go to the second round. I think we're going to go to Mr. Shields, for the Conservatives, or is it Mr. Waugh? Have you changed your round? We missed that last one.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Minister, in your opening remarks and in other places too, you've claimed that your government cares about the spread of misinformation and disinformation. Clause 51 of this bill would prevent social media platforms like Google from ranking high-quality news sources above those of a lesser quality. It would also prevent them from being able to take down fake news or even give alerts as to news that might be incorrect or false altogether.
We've heard from experts who have said that this bill would actually then deteriorate journalism and the integrity in this industry. It could actually proliferate garbage news, as well as clickbait and misinformation.
I'm wondering if you've been made aware of these serious concerns and if you're willing to make amendments to ensure that this is not the case.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Of course, I have heard all of the conversations and discussions around the bill. We've heard the tech giants' concerns. We think that the bill takes that into consideration.
The bill simply puts a table in the middle, Mrs. Thomas, where those platform tech giants and the news media across the country get together—
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Minister, I'm sorry. I'll just ask you to get to the point. I think you know how this works.
My question is whether or not you would entertain amendments to help make the bill stronger to ensure that misinformation isn't proliferated. It's simply a yes or no, Minister.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Mrs. Thomas, in the way that I work I'm always ready to listen to suggestions and recommendations, as I did in other bills. Those who know me and who have been there for a while know that my phone is there. You can reach me.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
Minister, my next question has to do with clause 24 of the bill.
We know that in everyday life we can use links within our sites, whether it's a blog, our Facebook pages or Twitter, etc. We can share these links, and no one is required to pay for doing so.
However, under Bill C-18, all of a sudden DNIs, digital news intermediaries, would be required to pay for news links, but only news links. News links would be the only thing on the Internet that would be ascribed a monetary value, and no other links. All other links can be shared with no problem and no need to pay, but news links somehow have value.
I'm just curious as to why news links are ascribed a value, but other links are not. Why do you feel that this is appropriate?
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
There's nothing that Canadians will pay for links. I know that in the past you have referred to this as a fact. I want to—
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Minister, I didn't say that Canadians would be paying for links. I said your legislation ascribes a value to them and I'm curious as to why.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
There isn't a value per click or link. What you do is look at the overall material that is used by a platform from a media source. The negotiations are then based on that overall information that is used. They sit down and negotiate. There isn't a cost or fee per link or click, precisely. That's not in the bill.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Minister, that's interesting, because when you were asked about this by Mr. Evan Solomon on his news show, you actually said that when people click a link there's value for that. I can send that direct quote over your way for your review. We'll leave that question there.