Evidence of meeting #50 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was facebook.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I didn't ask you a question.
Mr. Chan, you talked about the agreements you currently have with Canadian publishers. You said they're not commercial licensing agreements. Will you provide this committee with details of those agreements? I would remind you that we can summon them.
Global Policy Director, Meta Platforms Inc.
Well, I am so glad we live in a liberal democracy and operate in a market economy. As you can appreciate, any kind of commercial arrangement we have struck with partners is subject to the law and rule of law. I cannot do that, as much as.... I believe you may have asked somebody from a publication to do the same, and I don't think they can.
I don't have it on me either, by the way.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Mr. Chan. Your time is up. I'm sorry.
I'm going to go to Mr. Champoux from the Bloc.
Martin, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
It's no secret that technology has evolved a great deal. We used to get our news in written form through the newspapers. Then came radio in the 1930s and 1940s, followed by radio newsrooms, and then television. All of those media produced their own journalistic content through their newsrooms.
The market changed considerably with the advent of Internet, as we know. The whole world changed its lifestyle habits. Unlike traditional media, social media don't produce the content they offer their subscribers themselves. This is truly an unusual situation for the media industry, which is normally so used to adapting to change. If we fail to adequately protect our newsrooms and news media, they will, quite simply, disappear. Who, then, will be left to produce quality journalistic content?
I think the answer lies in the question.
Mr. von Finckenstein, you disagree with the way Bill C‑18 is put together. I'm not asking you to approve or disapprove what I've just said. That said, I think that, as former chair of the CRTC, you must be aware of the fact that the journalism and news media industry needs a new framework.
If that isn't achieved through legislation, such as the one before us that would compel companies that share content produced by our newsrooms to enter into agreements, how do you suggest we allow our news organizations to enjoy their fair share of the market that's been largely overtaken by the online platforms?
Former Chair, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, As an Individual
That's a very difficult question to answer.
If we want to subsidize the news, I think we need to take a simpler approach. The Canada Media Fund, for example, requires that all film distribution companies contribute a certain amount, which goes into a fund that then goes out to the people who make movies.
We could also—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Mr. von Finckenstein.
I think we have run out of time, Martin.
Liberal
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Chan, I'd like to direct my question to you.
On Meta's website, you have a section on combatting misinformation. You claim you are “stopping false news from spreading, removing content that violates [your] policies, and giving people...information” to make sound decisions. I'm trying to see how that statement on your site—that commitment—jibes with the threat you are considering: whether you're going to allow the sharing of actual news content. If you're threatening to pull links....
How are you going to ensure you are actually combatting misinformation, if journalism is not allowed to be on your site? Do you not understand that many Facebook users rely on your platform for accurate information, especially from local community news outlets? I think eliminating those news links will further diminish our democracy. Do you think it's moral for Facebook to be doing that—making that kind of threat?
Global Policy Director, Meta Platforms Inc.
Well, what we understand is that Canadians want less news on Facebook, not more. I think you're right that users may want to see good information. That's why we partner, for example, with the Public Health Agency of Canada. That's why we partner with Elections Canada. It's to get good information to Canadians.
I think what you raise, though, is a central concern for us with Bill C-18. We've heard other independent experts say that if there is a requirement not to preference certain publications, which I think Mr. von Finckenstein may be alluding to, then the approach that we have taken to reduce or to down-rank that information will be taken away from us. At least that's what other experts have said; if that's the case, then I worry that Bill C-18 exacerbates the issue and doesn't solve it, with all due respect.
Thank you for the substantive question. I'm trying to give you a substantive answer. I hope that's helpful.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Madam Chair, I'll leave it at that. I have only 30 seconds left.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor.
I'm now going to move to Ms. Gladu for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'm going to start off by talking about some of the things the Minister of Heritage said when he testified, and comments he has made. One of them is that he said this legislation is not intended to mandate payment for links.
Mr. Hatfield, is that an accurate characterization, in your view?
Campaigns Director, OpenMedia
I don't think anyone really knows how the determinations are going to be made around what the payments are based on. In terms of the spread of links and content and clicks, those appear to be the only criteria that are at all quantifiable in this bill. It's either that or vibes from the CRTC, just a sense that there must be an intangible amount of extra value being delivered in the text of the bill.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Chan, do you think this legislation is intended to mandate payment for links?
Global Policy Director, Meta Platforms Inc.
I do, because if you look at the way it's constructed, the bill is globally unprecedented in its scope. It ingests any possible definition of any news content, down to the unprecedented definition of a hyperlink.
I'll give you one very simple example. If you go to your favourite publication in Canada on Facebook, on the Facebook page, just scroll through it. See how many links you count versus, I don't know, some other content. You will know, just by your own verification, what we're trying to put our arms around through this bill, or what we're trying to count. The vast majority, the predominance, is links.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Yes. It's clear to me that this is a mandate of payment for links, which is not what the Minister of Heritage said. He also testified that he had a list of DNIs, but he would not share them with the group. Now, these digital news intermediaries....
Mr. von Finckenstein, I think you talked about how a better mechanism would be for the minister to be able to designate who was the DNI, because the definition is so unclear and in some cases may be unconstitutional. They say that it's all the digital news intermediaries that are under the control of the federal government, and so far that would mean none.
My question for you is this. If the minister does have the list, as he said he did, do you think it should be shared with this group before we approve Bill C-18?
Former Chair, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, As an Individual
It would certainly be helpful if he did that, as an example of what he has in mind and how he interprets the legislation. That being said, if the legislation stays as it is, it will await the decision of the CRTC...or actually, it will be the decision of the DNIs who have to come forward and voluntarily identify themselves and be accepted by the CRTC. As well, the CRTC can ask those who have not come forward to furnish this information so that the CRTC can make the decision on whether they're a DNI or not, based on the very loose criteria set out in the bill.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Does the CRTC have extensive experience in determining who is a digital news intermediary?
Former Chair, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, As an Individual
None. As I mentioned before, it was criteria all based on competition concepts, something that the CRTC does not have a competence in. It can, of course, ask for assistance from the bureau of competition, but it would be better if, as I said, this was really a decision by the government that these are the major DNIs and they should contribute. They should explain how they came to that decision based on the criteria set out in the act.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you.
One other concern I have is that sometimes when costs are levelled in a certain direction.... For example, if Google and Meta are going to be paying for links, sometimes these things trickle down to the consumer eventually, because somebody has to pay in order to keep profit margins for private companies that can take independent commercial business decisions.
Mr. Chan, do you think there is any possibility that this might ultimately result in Canadians having to pay to have news links shared?
Global Policy Director, Meta Platforms Inc.
Oh, my goodness, this is a finance question.
I honestly don't know, but I think you're right in stating.... As any good finance official will tell you, taxes can be notoriously leaky, and I think that's something that everybody should think about generally but, obviously, we haven't ever had any conversation about that.
I would say though.... You asked me about amendments. One big amendment that would give—
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
I only have half a minute, Mr. Chan, so please send your amendments to the committee.
Mr. Hatfield, in the interest of an open and free Internet, do you think there is a possibility that charging people for a link would destroy the whole openness of the Internet as we see it?
Campaigns Director, OpenMedia
It makes it worse. We're making it more difficult to share good information, which means more bad information will spread. The bill shouldn't be set up that way.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Ms. Gladu.
I will now turn to the final question.
We'll go to the Liberals and Mr. Bittle.
Chris, you have five minutes, please.