Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 15th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 53 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to the motions adopted by the committee on Monday, June 13, 2022, and Tuesday, September 20, 2022, the committee is meeting on the study of Hockey Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Some members are sitting in person and some are attending remotely using the Zoom application.

I want to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon at the bottom of your screen to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either English or French. You will see a little globe. That is your interpretation button. For those in the room, you know that you can use the earpiece and choose the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I wanted to ask the clerk one question: Is everyone miked with the House of Commons-approved mike? As you know, we have had some problems in the past with accidents.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

Yes, Dr. Fry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to begin the meeting.

As we see today, at the meeting we have representatives of Hockey Canada. From Hockey Canada, we have Pat McLaughlin, senior vice-president, and he is on by video conference. From the Oilers Entertainment Group, we have Bob Nicholson, chairman of hockey, who is also here by video conference.

I want to let the witnesses know that you each have five minutes to present. I will shout out when you have 30 seconds left so that you can wind up. If you haven't finished, you will be able to say what you need to say in the questions and answers.

We will begin, starting with Pat McLaughlin, senior vice-president, Hockey Canada.

You have five minutes, please, Mr. McLaughlin.

[Pat McLaughlin, Senior Vice-President, Strategy, Operations and Brand, Hockey Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the committee for inviting me to take part in this important study today.

I want to start by recognizing the serious calls for change that have come from the members of this committee, from the government, from our members, our sponsors and most importantly, all Canadians. The fact that this is the fourth time for Hockey Canada to appear before this committee, I can tell you, is certainly not lost on me. We have heard you. Hockey Canada must change, and it must do so urgently. Canadians expect and deserve meaningful action, and our organization, quite honestly, has been too slow to act. I hope that Canadians will see that we're putting in place the necessary changes required to regain their trust.

The past summer, we outlined a comprehensive action plan to address systemic issues in our sport, and we are making progress. We said that we would reopen the independent investigation into the alleged sexual assault of 2018, and we have. We said we would implement mandatory sexual violence and consent training for our national teams, and we have. We said we would commission an independent full governance review, and we have. We said that we would become a full signatory to the OSIC, and we have. We also said that we would create a new, independent third party complaint mechanism, and we have done that as well.

At the same time, we recognize that there's a need to make room for leadership change. As this group knows and Canadians know, our entire board has resigned and our CEO recently departed Hockey Canada. Without question, we are in a significant transition phase. On December 17, we will be joined by a new board of directors, and that board of directors will be identified by a nominating committee that is independent.

I feel confident that I can speak for all of our staff and our members when I say that we're looking forward to this new leadership and the fresh ideas and perspectives it will bring in order to help move our organization forward.

Today, to assist the committee with your questioning, I want to provide some brief background on my role at Hockey Canada.

I am the senior vice-president of strategy, operations and brand, and I oversee a number of key areas within Hockey Canada. Some of those areas include business planning, the development of our strategic plan and the execution of that plan, general operations, marketing and branding, and alignment.

I will answer all of your questions today to the best of my ability. It's important to note at the same time that anything to do with respect to Hockey Canada finances, safe sport initiatives and legal matters are not within my current job scope.

I also want to point out that I joined Hockey Canada in the fall of 2018, after the alleged incident that occurred. I had no involvement in the handling of the incident or in the settlement discussions, and I only first became aware of the incident in May of this year.

As I wrap up, Madam Chair, I want to touch on a couple of quick things.

Our organization has made mistakes. Our failure to act sooner has had a significant toll on children, parents and volunteers, and I can tell you that we are deeply sorry for that. I want to be clear on this as well. Make no mistake: Without those folks, there is no Hockey Canada.

Making it right for our organization has had a heavy financial cost, a heavy organizational cost and an emotional cost. Our organization has also placed significant strain on our members.

However, I can also tell you that we are very optimistic for the future. We are listening. We've clearly heard the calls for us to do better, and we are working on being accountable in rebuilding the organization.

I'm going to be honest as I wrap up. We need the help of this group. It's a sincere comment. We do not have all the answers, nor do we profess to. It's my hope that we can work in a collaborative nature as a team as we move forward. With the help of this committee, we can work together to make hockey a safer sport for all those involved both on and off the ice.

With that, I thank you, Madam Chair. I'd be happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I'll now go to Mr. Bob Nicholson from the Oilers Entertainment Group, for five minutes, please.

[Bob Nicholson, chairman of hockey, Oilers Entertainment Group]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Bob Nicholson. I served as president and CEO of Hockey Canada from 1998 to 2014. I will do my best to address your questions regarding my time there.

Let me say up front that the allegations about the incidents at the 2018 gala and at the 2003 world junior tournament are an outrage. That kind of conduct has no place in our game or our society. I hope that both cases are investigated fully and that justice is done.

When I was CEO of Hockey Canada, I led an effort by our organization to improve player safety and prevent abuse of the kind we saw involving Graham James and the terrible experiences that Sheldon Kennedy and others bravely shared with us. Sheldon's testimony and those of the other victims demanded a real reckoning for our sport.

I believe we've made progress, becoming one of the first national sports organizations to work with Respect Group, beginning with programs aimed at coaches, officials, trainers and administrators, and later growing to involve parents and players.

I am grateful that I am still close with Sheldon and the others who were involved at that time. I'm proud of the progress we've made. It is clear that we didn't go nearly far enough, particularly regarding off-ice conduct. It is, perhaps, the failure to see that then that brings us here today.

As a sport, we all have a lot more work to do to ensure that we have a culture in hockey where everyone feels safe and welcome. This will require commitment and real action, not just nationally but also at the regional and provincial levels. I am hopeful that the work that Hockey Canada is currently doing, as well as the efforts of this committee and others, will make the game safer for everyone involved.

During my time as CEO, Hockey Canada's role was to develop and deliver programs to its 13 member branches across Canada. These branches are regional governing bodies that operate with their own volunteers and boards to deliver programs to over 600,000 youth across Canada.

As CEO, I had three priorities. My first priority was safety. We had to make the game much safer on the ice and address things such as hitting from behind. The game was suffering, and corrective action was needed.

My second priority, one that is important to me personally, was addressing the issue of sexual abuse. At the time, we were focused on players who had bravely come forward to discuss abuse they had experienced from coaches. The work we began with Respect Group grew out of those efforts. It was important work, but I must say I regret that there was not more focus on off-ice player conduct and on the culture of silence that appears to persist to this day.

My third priority was to restore the financial health of the organization. When I took over as CEO, Hockey Canada was in financial distress and largely dependent on government funds. We set a goal to improve our finances. We did that by developing partnerships and other new revenue sources that helped expand our programs while keeping participant fees relatively flat. We also put in place risk management mechanisms, including the insurance funds that have been at the centre of much of your work.

I am pleased to read in the Cromwell report the following comment:

The establishment of reserve funds to address the risk of uninsured and under-insured claims is not only sound, but the failure to do so would be a serious oversight.

It has been more than eight years since I left Hockey Canada, and there may be details I can't recall or to which I don't have access, but I can assure the committee that I'm here in a spirit of openness—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Bob Nicholson]

—and I want to work with you to create a healthy environment around our game.

With that, I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nicholson.

We will now go to the question and answer segment.

Before I begin, I would like to let the committee know that Sébastien Lemire will be replacing Martin Champoux for the Bloc Québécois today.

We will begin the first round with Kevin Waugh for six minutes.

Kevin, you have six minutes, please.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our guests today, Pat McLaughlin and Bob Nicholson. Bob, of course, was for a long time with Hockey Canada, and before that the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, which of course went into Hockey Canada.

Mr. Nicholson, you referred to 2018, when you were not president and CEO of the organization, but you were in 2003 in Halifax at the world juniors. When did you become aware of the sexual allegations out of that world championship out of Halifax?

[Bob Nicholson]

Thank you for your question.

The rumour was conveyed to me by a media person on July 7 at the draft in Montreal. That was the very first time I heard anything about the 2003 incident.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Okay.

We're going to talk about the funds, because you've been there since day one. We find the national equity fund. Then we find the participants legacy trust fund. Now we have a third fund that Hockey Canada uses for settlements.

Mr. Nicholson, were you in charge of any of these funds since day one with Hockey Canada?

[Bob Nicholson]

I was the CEO, but that area was really left to our insurance people. We had very good staff. We also had a committee that oversaw the insurance programs as well as some expertise. You had Barry Lorenzetti here. He was a big part of that.

All of that came to me, but I was not day-to-day hands-on to that.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

How many funds or other collections of money available for settling these sexual assault lawsuits were created while you were at Hockey Canada for your term there of almost two decades?

[Bob Nicholson]

The very first one was the equity fund. Then we moved into the legacy fund in 1999. The stabilization fund was there in 2007 and 2008.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

So you set up three funds. I noticed that in your address you said that Hockey Canada wasn't very fluid on money, but today, as you know, Hockey Canada is the richest non-profit sport organization in the country, with almost $150 million in their bank account.

I want you to address these three funds, to tell parents who had to pay the registration fees...I would say 90% to 100% not knowing that these funds were set up. Parents across this country were shocked when the story broke in July that registration fees were in fact used for sexual assault cases.

[Bob Nicholson]

I can tell you that when I left Hockey Canada, those funds were in the neighbourhood of $40 million to $50 million. There are other areas that the money was there.... The goal at that time was to make sure that we had enough funds if something drastic happened to Hockey Canada or the various levels below us.

The registration fee, when I was there, stayed the same, at approximately three dollars, and I don't think it's been raised since that time.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

One of the issues we've had around this table has been the non-disclosure agreements. We are not getting any answers from Hockey Canada on the non-disclosure agreements. You were CEO. Can you speak to the non-disclosure agreements under your term as CEO with Hockey Canada? How many were there?

[Bob Nicholson]

I can't tell you the exact number of NDAs that were signed. I know that where there were payouts or NDAs signed under the Graham James situation...and there have been others that are there from staff in the past, but for me to say a number, I just don't have that.

You could go back to Hockey Canada. Hopefully, they would give you the number of NDAs that happened throughout my time with Hockey Canada.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

How about the names of people banned from participating its sanctioned teams and leagues? You mentioned Graham James, which, as you know, I'm familiar with from the province of Saskatchewan. He turns up coaching elsewhere. Nobody even knows about him or his past record. These are the sorts of things that in the hockey world we're astonished to hear. After banning Graham James in the hockey circles in this country, he shows up elsewhere.

Nobody has track of these people when their sexual allegations and what they went through should be known worldwide.

[Bob Nicholson]

Kevin, thanks for asking that question. That was something that I got involved in.

Graham James went to Spain to coach. We contacted the International Ice Hockey Federation at the time, and we contacted Spain and gave them the information about Graham James. It was astonishing, but they allowed him to continue to coach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 20 seconds left, Kevin.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

You must be sick of the allegations that have come forward since you left as CEO of Hockey Canada. Could you comment on that quickly?

[Bob Nicholson]

I missed the first part of that, Kevin. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry. We're now out of time, Kevin. Perhaps somebody from your team can ask that question later on.

Thank you.

Now we're going to go to the Liberals and Michael Coteau for six minutes.