Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2022

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My concern still is the one journalist in this conversation on Bill C-18.

I will go back to the testimony once again from Alberta and Saskatchewan. The majority of newspapers in these two provinces.... I can't speak for B.C. because we didn't have anyone come forward for B.C., Ontario or the Maritimes. These issues in this province and in Alberta are not good. Eighty percent of the money that comes from Bill C-18 will go to the public broadcaster, along with the big telcos.

What they have left here, and the discussion that we're having on NDP-16, is that we still need two journalists, which of course can be the owner and can be an investor. The QCJO status is an issue. I've talked to many journalism universities in this province. Fewer and fewer people are getting into journalism, so this is another issue that we're going to have.

To survive in rural Canada today, one journalist is required. Two would put many of these operations out of business when they're thinking they're going to get $30,000 to $50,000 per year, when in fact they'll get $300 to $500 per year because there's nothing in it for them from Google and Facebook. It's all eaten up by the big boys.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[The Clerk]

Dr. Fry, I have Mrs. Thomas and then Mr. Julian.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

There is no reason to exclude those news businesses with one journalist other than simply to be punitive. That's extremely sad.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We have the Conservatives throwing out a whole bunch of figures left, right and centre. I have no idea where those figures come from, so I wanted to ask our officials to what extent NDP-16 would enlarge the number of small community newspapers and online news publishers. Would it be able to benefit from this money from big tech?

Secondly, my question is simply this: If we just stop moving forward on Bill C-18, which is what the Conservatives want, what would that mean in terms of those newspapers and online publishers across the country? If we don't have Bill C-18 at all, how many news publications would go bankrupt in the coming years?

I've certainly seen big tech taking so much money out of my constituency that we've lost half of the community newspapers over the last few years.

I'm asking the officials, I guess, three things.

Where do these figures come from, or are they aware of these figures that are being thrown around by the Conservatives? What is the impact of not adopting Bill C-18? What is the impact of NDP-16 in terms of enlarging the number of publications that benefit from big tech finally being forced to provide support for journalism in this country?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Mr. Ripley.

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for the question, MP Julian.

What I can share with you is what has been shared with the department by certain news associations. Representations have been made here by a number of folks.

One is the National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada, which is an association of smaller news outlets with membership in the hundreds. They have been concerned by the criterion of having two regularly employed journalists.

The amendment you're moving, Mr. Julian, would certainly help a proportion of their membership. It will not help their entire membership. They have indicated that having the amendment specifically with respect to the arm's-length nature of the relationship, as well as including the owner and publisher, is a meaningful change.

News Media Canada has indicated—they have membership in the hundreds as well—that currently about a hundred of their members would face a hurdle when it comes to the two-journalist criterion. Again, the change that you are moving is a meaningful one, recognizing that the owner or publisher can be included in that two-journalist criterion.

Finally, we have certainly heard from online news publications. Again, they have flagged that the two-journalist criterion is a barrier. They have advocated that it be reduced to one, as well as recognizing that news publishers and owners should be considered as part of that criterion.

From the government's perspective, I would simply underscore that if Bill C-18 passes, it's an important intervention, but it's not the only intervention that the government does in this space. There are several departmental programs that are specifically designed to support news outlets.

For example, the Canada periodical fund supports approximately 750 periodicals on an annual basis, including 385 print magazines, 291 print community newspapers, 65 digital magazines and 14 digital community newspapers.

Over the last several years we have also had the special measures for journalism component, which has expanded the eligibility to include free publications. That has supported an additional 792 recipients, which include free digital and small circulation periodicals, and has had an important impact in western Canada, where the free subscription model is more prevalent than perhaps in Ontario, Quebec or some of the other provinces.

The final piece I would highlight is the local journalism initiative, which has supported the hiring of 435 journalists in 2020-21. Again, that's a program specifically designed to help scale up news businesses to hire additional journalists in underserved areas.

From the government's perspective, we recognize the challenges faced by smaller outlets. The two-journalist criterion currently in the bill—I certainly recognize that it's being debated right now—was fundamentally about recognizing that the goal is to support news businesses, just as the labour tax credit is, and that you have to find a way to make that distinction between an individual citizen journalist, a blogger, and individuals who are really committed to growing a news business.

Mr. Julian, on your second question, I would simply highlight that news businesses continue to see shrinkage in the news sector in this country. While we have seen news outlets open—particularly in the digital space—we're still seeing overall shrinkage. Bill C-18 is fundamentally about supporting the sustainability of the sector as these news businesses adapt to a digital news model.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I see Ms. Gladu's hand up, with Mr. Waugh following you.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm glad to hear Mr. Ripley tell us that if Bill C-18 doesn't go forward, there are other forms of help that are already in place. I think it bears repeating that Facebook and Google are on the public record saying that they would be willing to donate funds that could go into a fund that would be managed by representation from the different provincial, indigenous and territorial small media outlets across the country. That would avoid all of the government bureaucracy and the tendency to interfere with the freedom of the media.

That said, we had some examples that Mr. Ripley cited of organizations that have fewer than two journalists that would be excluded and impacted.

Mr. Ripley, do you have a number of how many organizations in Canada would meet the other criteria, like being journalists or news organizations as part of the Income Tax Act or being licensees with the CRTC?

How many organizations would have fewer than two journalists and be impacted?

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

Thank you, MP Gladu.

I don't have a specific figure for you. Our data, again, is based on those organizations that made representations to us.

The National Ethnic Press and Media Council is an example. It would need to be confirmed, but I believe their membership is approximately 700. Again, that would include very small news outlets that would fall into the one journalist category. They have also indicated that if the eligibility criteria is broadened to include two journalists—but including the owner-operator, as well as journalists who do not deal at arm's length—that would include a proportion of their membership.

Again, it would be the same thing with News Media Canada, whose membership, I believe, is in the 500s. As I've mentioned, they have indicated that there were about a hundred of their outlets and their members facing this barrier.

On the third group that I mentioned that has engaged with us, which is the online news publications, I don't have a specific number. However, again, they have shared those concerns.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Certainly the hundreds and possibly more than a thousand organizations that would be excluded are exactly the kinds of organizations that we want to help.

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

Thank you, MP Gladu.

Based on the representations that have been made to us.... Again, it is some proportion of the National Ethnic Press and Media Council with 700-some members, as well as 100 members or so from News Media Canada.

If this amendment that MP Julian is proposing passes, I acknowledge that there would continue to be news outlets that employ one journalist that may not be eligible. There will still be some news businesses in that category. The amendment that MP Julian is moving would address part of the problem.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

This is my last intervention.

I'm really disappointed, Mr. Ripley. We have a chance to perfect Bill C-18. We're passing a bad bill. Is that better than not passing this bill at all?

You have just admitted there will be organizations that do not meet the criteria of Bill C-18. We have a chance right now, all parties around this table, to correct this. You have heard from many stakeholders that they need one journalist—not two; one. You cited the Canadian Periodical Fund and the local journalism fund. You've also said there is shrinkage. We all know around this table that there has been a lot of shrinkage. I can bring a newspaper from my province that sold for $1.

Would Mr. Julian accept an amendment to make Bill C-18 even better for all Canadians by having one journalist instead of two? Would Mr. Julian agree to that to make this bill what it should be, a good bill for all Canadians, instead of leaving out many rural Canadians in Bill C-18?

Would you amend the bill to accept all Canadians and businesses trying to make a living in this country, Mr. Julian?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Peter, did you want to respond to that question?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I thought it was a rhetorical question, Madam Chair, but I am pleased to respond to the Conservatives' incomprehensible strategy on Bill C-18.

I am stunned by the whiplash we get from them not supporting it all, trying to stop it, trying to block it completely, and then all of a sudden saying they're in favour of it, but now they're saying they're opposed. I mean, they're doing this sometimes on the same amendment, being both opposed and in favour of Bill C-18. It's just mind-blowing.

I don't where they're going on this. All the witnesses they lined up were folks they wanted to get to say they opposed Bill C-18. It has been incomprehensible to determine where Conservatives are going on this bill.

The reality is that when the Conservatives were in power in that dismal decade we lived through under Harper, these news businesses were collapsing because the Conservative government refused to make sure we were putting in place protections against big tech, so big tech, big banks, big oil and gas had a field day, and regular people really suffered.

I hope this means the Conservatives will support NDP-16. We now know the vast majority of news businesses will benefit from this. This essentially ensures that many news businesses will benefit. The independent online news publishers of Canada strongly support this idea. I hope Conservatives will get with the program; however, I'm mystified by where they are on this. Either they don't understand the bill or.... I don't know what. The confusion around where the Conservatives stand on Bill C-18 has been mystifying.

I hope they will vote and support NDP-16. There's a wide variety of media calling for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Mrs. Thomas, please go ahead.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Ripley, the preamble of this bill talks about the sustainability of news media sources. You used that word in your last response. You used the word “sustainability”.

I'd be interested to know from you how this bill will contribute to news businesses with one or one and a half journalists in order to make them sustainable.

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

Through the chair, one observation I would make off the top is that I believe there was an earlier reference to two full-time journalists. That's not the case. It's two regularly employed journalists, which would include—with respect to the first part of your question—two journalists working part-time or one journalist working full-time plus a journalist working part-time.

With respect to the question around one journalist, I acknowledge that as drafted, and even with MP Julian's motion, if it passes, a one-journalist operation would be excluded from the ambit of this bill. I acknowledge the policy debate that's taking place on this point.

The challenge is that there needs to be a mechanism to determine the difference between an individual and a news business or a news organization, so the QCJO.... One reason that the two-journalist criterion was chosen in that context was to make that distinction. Fundamentally, it's a labour tax credit. It's about supporting a news business, and the fact that you have more than one individual is one indication that you're growing a business.

That distinction needs to be made somewhere because, at the end of the day, the mechanism that the bill sets up is that these organizations' eligibility would be determined by the CRTC, and there needs to be appropriate guidance about where that distinction is between supporting an individual versus a news business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Ripley.

Go ahead, Kevin.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

No, I'm sorry, Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Mrs. Thomas; You have another question. Go ahead.