Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Thomas Cromwell]

Again, I have to go back to what I was trying to do, which was to help set up a firm foundation for governance for the organization. I was not there to assess their performance on every operational issue. I firmly believe the sorts of governance recommendations I made—as I say in the report—would greatly assist the organization in fulfilling its mission.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you.

We'll move to the Conservatives for five minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I believe Mrs. Thomas has a couple of questions, then she'll give me the residual.

Thanks.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Okay.

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Cromwell.

You highlighted that the 2022 audited financial statements will be known on December 17. That's coming up towards the end of this week.

In your estimation, should Hockey Canada make those audits public?

[Thomas Cromwell]

Yes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Why is that?

[Thomas Cromwell]

It's consistent with the COC standards for national sport organizations.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Why has Hockey Canada gotten away with not doing that for so long, if it's the standard?

[Thomas Cromwell]

I'm not sure “gotten away” is the correct term, exactly. There is no legal obligation to do that. It's a standard—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

However, it is the standard.

[Thomas Cromwell]

—and not a legal regulation. There are filing obligations. Why they chose not to do this.... We commented on this in the report. My advice to them is to adhere to that standard.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

This is the third full governance review done and paid for by Hockey Canada since 2014. There was very little measurable change based on the first review, and very little measurable change based on the second one.

Do you have confidence we're going to see change based on this review?

[Thomas Cromwell]

Respectfully, I don't think it's up to me to have confidence or not. What they'll do with my recommendations.... My task—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'll ask it this way, then. Do you have evidence that suggests the Canadian public will see measurable change based on your report?

[Thomas Cromwell]

What I can say is that my interim report was adopted by the members at a special meeting, and it's clear the nominating committee has made serious efforts to go in the direction that I recommended. It will be for the members to decide on the weekend whether they want to continue to go in that direction.

There are certainly steps that have been taken that are directly and promptly responsive to my recommendations.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I wonder how much of that has to do with the fact that sponsors pulled so much funding and that this organization was finally publicly shamed for their misconduct versus how much that has to do with your report, but I'll let that question sit there.

I just want to come back around, because I want to make sure you understand that I'm requesting something in writing, and that is on the question I asked toward the end of my time last time. I asked you if there was any evidence of Hockey Canada wanting to join OSIC before the Minister of Sport imposed this obligation on them in order to have their funding reinstated. You said there was evidence, but that you didn't have those notes in front of you.

[Thomas Cromwell]

No, I'm going to correct myself—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I just want to make clear that I'm requesting a written statement with regard to this evidence.

[Thomas Cromwell]

I think perhaps I misunderstood your question. I apologize. There's no evidence that there was an intention to join before the Minister of Sport intervened. That is clear, and I believe I have that in the report.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay. I'm going to give you an opportunity to correct the record then, because before you said there was evidence that they had perhaps considered it, but that they had decided they didn't want to because they didn't want their financial statements to be made public.

Do you want to go back on that statement now, Mr. Cromwell?

[Thomas Cromwell]

I think I want to clarify it at least. I'm not sure I completely understood the chronology of the question.

We have in the report the evidence of.... I think we're maybe talking about two different things here, but if the question is whether I have evidence about the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner before the government acted to freeze the funding, the answer is no.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'll let that sit there. I'll give it to my colleague.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have two quick questions. First of all, on the transparency of financial reporting, I think you were clear that, with these three funds that existed, there was some concern that if people had known how much money was really there, there might have been more claimants come forward. Definitely transparency will be important. I know that when it's removed, like it was in the first sitting of Parliament with Bill C-2.... The financial transparency for indigenous reporting was removed with some negative consequences.

Is there a way of perhaps combining the way the funds are reported, so that they are insurance and uncovered or uninsurable liabilities? Is that a way of reporting with transparency without necessarily dangling a carrot for others?

[Thomas Cromwell]

I think I'm out of my depth on that question, because how matters are reported on audited statements is a special skill of people who are trained in auditing. As you'll see from the report, the organization was given some specific advice about these funds.

If I may speculate a little bit, it seems to me the next steps would be for the board to say that this is the policy direction they wish to move in, in terms of transparency, and then ask advice from their auditors, among others, on how best to do that consistent with generally accepted accounting principles.