Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll continue along the same lines.

Mrs. Khanna, who was responsible for giving the signal or recommendation to immediately suspend the contract, if that was what the department wanted?

[Mala Khanna]

Thank you for the question.

Accountability for this is very important. Ultimately, it was the responsibility of me and Charles. We did ultimately take steps—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You say “ultimately”. I don't want to belabour the point, but we have a deep misunderstanding of the process and this delay in making a decision that seems so obvious to everyone.

You have in front of you tweets, statements and reports of absolutely unacceptable remarks because they are francophobic, anti-Semitic and hateful.

Who had to make the decision and didn't? Who didn't take the initiative to terminate this contract immediately?

I'm trying to figure out why it took so long. No one around the table here would have waited a minute before telling Mr. Marouf that it was over. Why did it take so long?

[Mala Khanna]

Thank you for the question.

I do understand the concerns. I agree with you that we could have moved more quickly. I think in similar circumstances, if we had to be in this situation again, we would move more quickly. We wanted to make sure we had it right. We reviewed the contract—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mrs. Khanna, you wanted to make sure you got it right, but I don't know what more of an argument you needed than the hard, public evidence you had in front of you. Let's just leave it at that because I understand that we aren't going to know anything more.

You said that there were two rounds of evaluations when the program was set up. Can you remind the committee how many submissions were made under the program, in total? I think you said there were 1,100.

[Mala Khanna]

Yes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Of those 1,100 submissions, how many resulted funding?

[Mala Khanna]

Eighty-five did, Madam Chair.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Okay.

Do you remember the criteria that led to the Community Media Advocacy Centre not being selected after the first round of assessments?

[Mala Khanna]

Madam Chair, I was not part of that initial review, but my understanding is that there was nothing wrong with the project proposal. It was merely that there were, as you said, 1,100 applications, and only 85 could be accepted. There was nothing deficient, but it wasn't at the top.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

So there was money left at the end, if I understand correctly.

How are applicants screened? Are a few picked at random, or does each applicant go through a review, which I hope is now a little more comprehensive?

Are all applicants systematically reviewed?

[Mala Khanna]

Yes, Madam Chair. Each application is reviewed.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Okay.

On September 12, 2022, the National Post reported remarks by the minister that this incident represented a system failure. He promised that a host of measures would be put in place to ensure that this doesn't happen again.

One of the things he mentioned was that there would be audit training for program officers. In addition, officers would be required to review each funding application before it is approved. These officers would receive training in reviewing the social media accounts of organizations and individuals, as well as diversity and inclusion training, including anti-racism and anti-Semitism awareness training. The minister went on to say that if an organization had its funding withdrawn, it would no longer be eligible for funding from Canadian Heritage. The minister concluded by stating that candidates should commit to taking steps to create an environment free from harassment, abuse and discrimination.

Were these measures put in place as a result of the incident? Don't you think that these are measures that should have been in place from the beginning?

[Mala Khanna]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the question.

There are very well-established procedures that were in place before the financials were looked at and the organization was looked at. Was it a first-time organization? A risk-based, comprehensive review of the applications is done.

What this case has brought to light is that while the contract itself was cancelled under the previous system, we wanted to make it much clearer, explicit, that individuals who espoused hate, racism or discrimination would not be eligible for funding. These additional requirements and training were brought in because it was new. Previously there was training for program advisers. This new training was specifically on the new criteria that we were piloting, along with additional training on anti-racism and anti-Semitism.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mrs. Khanna, would you say—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have about 10 seconds left. I'm sorry.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'll leave it at that for now, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we go to the NDP for six minutes, with Peter Julian.

Peter, you have six minutes. Thank you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

This is, obviously, a concern to all members of the committee and to the Canadian public, I think, writ large. We've seen more and more instances of anti-Semitic hate and all other forms of toxic hate. A year ago on Parliament Hill, a Nazi flag, which is a despicable symbol of genocidal violence, was waved during the so-called “freedom convoy”. This is something that all Canadians have to be concerned about: the rise in anti-Semitism and the rise in hate.

I've introduced a private member's bill, Bill C-229, to ban those symbols of hate, like the Nazi flag that represents nothing more than the genocidal violence and hate that led to the Holocaust.

The concerns, I think, are very legitimate. The fact that this anti-Semitism was funded by the federal government, funded by the taxpayers, I find unbelievable.

I want to understand that changes have been made to ensure that this never happens again. I listened very carefully to your testimony—thank you, Ms. Khanna—that there are new procedures that have been put into place. I think you referred to a deeper assessment that actually includes individuals as well as organizations.

Would you suggest that all of those procedures are now in place? It was unclear to me whether the department was still considering that or whether the department had put in place concrete measures.

[Mala Khanna]

The attestation and the program eligibility requirements that have been strengthened are now in place. All of the active files that were in the system when this was discovered subsequent to Minister Hussen's asking for a pause and a comprehensive review.... All of those agreements have been re-reviewed by program advisers using this new criteria. We've gone back and looked at the application to ensure that we were doing the deeper, enhanced online searches.

That has been done. It has been done with a view to testing the system, piloting it and better understanding what needs to be added to it. The objective is to ensure that we will be reviewing in this manner. However, we will be assessing and our internal audit will be looking at this to make sure that we can have the best possible advice and evaluation of the process we have undertaken.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You made reference to a training process and training material. Mr. Housefather has asked that we get copies of that material, and I echo his call. Do the training process and training material include a definition of anti-Semitism?

[Mala Khanna]

Yes, the training that was done on October 27 was done by UNESCO with the special envoy for Holocaust remembrance and combatting anti-Semitism. The definition of anti-Semitism that was used is the definition by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, which is the same definition that was adopted as part of Canada's anti-racism strategy.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I know the organization. I don't question its work at all. It does terrific work. The definition itself, as I'm sure you're aware, has been controversial because...less clear.

Are you familiar with or is there reference incorporated in the training materials to the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism, which has a definition that says very clearly that “Antisemitism is discrimination, prejudice, hostility or violence against Jews as Jews (or Jewish institutions as Jewish)”? Is that incorporated into the material that is provided for training?

[Mala Khanna]

I'm going to turn to my colleague. I am aware that the definition that was used is the IHRA definition for anti-Semitism. I am not sure about the Jerusalem declaration.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Did you need to confirm that?