Evidence of meeting #86 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was boxing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Geneviève Desjardins
Kim Taylor  Player and Family Ice Hockey Advocate, As an Individual
Lukas Walter  As an Individual
Thomas Gobeil  Health Coach, As an Individual
Christopher Lindsay  Executive Director, Boxing Canada
Mélanie Lemay  Co-founder, Québec contre les violences sexuelles

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Good morning, everyone.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 86th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Therefore, for those who are online, if you look at the bottom of your screen, you'll see something that looks like a globe. It's your interpretation prompt. If you press it you can get interpretation in English or French, as you require.

Also, please remember that while public health authorities and the Board of Internal Economy no longer require mask wearing indoors or in the precinct, it is prudent to think about wearing a mask to protect against respiratory disease and, if I may say, as you walk out, wearing one protects you against the pollution outside.

I want to take this opportunity to remind all participants that you cannot take pictures of your screen. The committee's proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

You should not speak. Your mike should be on mute during the procession. When I call your name, you may unmute and speak—only if your name is called and you are recognized by the chair. Questions and comments should come through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, September 20, 2022, the committee is meeting to continue its study on safe sport in Canada.

Today we have three sets of witnesses. As individuals we have Kim Taylor, player and family ice hockey advocate; Lukas Walter; and Thomas Gobeil, health coach. They will be sharing a five-minute opening statement. I thought you should know that. From Boxing Canada, we have Christopher Lindsay, executive director. From Québec contre les violences sexuelles, we have Mélanie Lemay, co-founder.

We will begin with Ms. Taylor.

You may now proceed with your five-minute opening—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Madam Chair, it's Martin.

We have a couple of witnesses who had to be organized to be here. I just wondered if you had organized anything for those two specific witnesses from the government to appear.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

The clerk is actually organizing witnesses. She calls them and finds out when they can come.

I don't know if Geneviève has anything or she wants to comment on that.

3:50 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Geneviève Desjardins

My apologies. I was just checking on people in the back.

Did you have questions about witnesses?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

It's official government witnesses. Kirsty Duncan is an MP and a former cabinet minister.

3:50 p.m.

The Clerk

Yes. Ms. Duncan is scheduled to appear on Thursday. I've been following up with the minister's office, but I have yet to hear back on her availability.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Ms. Taylor, you may now begin with your five-minute opening statement.

I give everyone a shout-out, and I mean it. It's a shout-out, not a piece of paper. When they have 30 seconds left, I'll say, “You have 30 seconds left.” You can stop and put your thoughts together.

I'm sorry if my speaking is hampered. I have asthma and the pollution is causing some breathing problems for me. I'm sorry about that.

Ms. Taylor, you may begin, please, for five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Kim Taylor Player and Family Ice Hockey Advocate, As an Individual

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable committee, for asking me to speak with you all today in regard to abuse in sport.

My name is Kim Taylor. I'm an American citizen and the mother of a former WHL player. My son's hockey had advanced to a level where he was being given many opportunities and choices about where he would play the following season. Ultimately he decided he really wanted to play in Canada, where hockey means everything to Canadians. He felt that would be a good home for him. He felt this would give him the best opportunity for his development and a fast track to the opportunity to play in the NHL. Few make that final jump to the NHL, and that dream didn't come true for my son. We hoped, but we were realistic and had always talked about a backup plan.

What we didn't anticipate was that the dream would be replaced with a nightmare. We didn't expect him to come home with mental health issues. As a parent, I trusted the WHL to live up to its promises and to take our teenage son under its wing and develop him not only as a hockey player but as an upstanding young man and citizen, as they promised. However, we quickly learned that once our teenager signed his player contract, the league owned him and indoctrinated him into their hockey culture. The clear message sent to players is “all for one, one for all.” What happens in the locker room stays in the locker room. The culture of silence is real and it exists, not only with the players but also for their families. You don't complain and you don't tell what goes on behind closed doors. If you do, they will publicly make an example out of you. They do so as a means of intimidating other players for speaking out. Even years after leaving the CHL, players still find it difficult to go on record about their abuse. My son's abuse happened a decade ago. We still suffer pain and live with that. It took us a long time to come out and speak about it because of fear of retribution. It's hard.

The prime example of the culture of silence is that after the league was informed of my son's abuse, following my testimony in the Oregon State Senate hearings, the CHL commissioned their own independent investigation. Even after admitting fault with the way they handled my son, they never called to apologize. They never let us see the private investigation report or let us know what actions were taken by the CHL to ensure that this type of treatment wouldn't happen to other players.

I have many issues with the CHL business model but I know this is not your mandate. However, it is your mandate to provide protections for workers and athletes, not only for Canadians but for import players like my son. Canada is a global leader in hockey development. That is one of the reasons I entrusted my son into the Canadian hockey system, yet under the current policies of OSIC, CHL players have no additional protection. To make matters worse, following the Portland hearings and just before the Quebec National Assembly hearings on employment standards law changes, the CHL attempted to silence players from speaking and threatened to sue them for libel.

Clearly, through these hearings, the committee has recognized that systemic problems exist within the Canadian Hockey League. It's obvious that the Canadian Hockey League cannot police themselves. It's also clear that the CHL falls into a category that doesn't require them to be accountable to anyone—not Hockey Canada or federal or provincial governments, yet they seek amateur status under the Canadian government system for financial gain. They are not affiliated with a union or a players association.

Canadians are looking for leadership with respect to how this committee is going to handle these incidents. You also have the eyes of the world looking at the outcome.

I often wonder whether, if there had been provincial or federal regulations in place or a true third party association for players, that would have prevented the maltreatment of my son. We still need to have a federal inquiry about abuse in sports. Parents once again need reassurance that, if they send their children to play in the CHL, they will be protected.

Thank you for your time.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Now, I'll go to Mr. Lukas Walter and Thomas Gobeil. I hope you will be splitting your time as you promised you would. I'll still give you a shout-out at 30 seconds if you go over time.

Thank you very much.

Lukas, you may begin.

3:55 p.m.

Lukas Walter As an Individual

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am Lukas Walter from Langley, B.C., a former WHL and QMJHL player. I played three years in the CHL in both Canada and the U.S.A.

I come here today from B.C. to address the committee on the very important issue of Canadian hockey players' rights. I wish to share my story with this body to provide you with information that will help make hockey fairer and safer for players in the future.

During my experience in the CHL, I witnessed numerous issues that might not have occurred if there had been a third party resource that players could have had access to in times of trouble or a mental health crisis. If you would like examples, I can give you some. You can inquire.

During my time in the CHL, I was exploited financially by teams. I provided my service, which I was paid for. Since then, I have become a players' advocate for wage and hour. I am a plaintiff in the class action for wage and hour. I've stood up for players during my career on the ice and have been rewarded with praise and benefits in the form of monetary awards.

I played three years within the CHL and was entitled to three years of scholarship. When I attempted to obtain my education scholarship, I was informed by the league that it had expired because I did not use it within the first year of leaving the league. I was not aware of this. This is a prime example of why there needs to be a third party to protect players' rights and to hold the league accountable for better communication.

I now want to make the league a safer place with better working conditions, a place that is more enjoyable for the players, with a new culture that will allow players to speak out with no repercussions. I feel that a third party is needed to oversee the league and the business model, while making sure players' rights, education and safety are protected. We ask this body and the Minister of Sport to declare CHL players employees.

We are also here today to break the trend of players not speaking out.

Thank you for your time.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Mr. Walker.

We now go to Thomas Gobeil.

Thomas, you have three minutes.

4 p.m.

Thomas Gobeil Health Coach, As an Individual

Madam Chair and honourable committee, my name is Thomas Gobeil. I want to thank you for allowing me to attend today's hearing and to share with you all some of the issues I witnessed and experienced first-hand during my time in the Canadian Hockey League.

I played QMJHL for three years, and I'd like to share with you a little bit about my last season. I had just come from my first NHL experience with the Anaheim Ducks. I had a good beginning of the season individually, but as a team we were struggling.

After a few losses, our coach decided he wasn't happy, and he decided to put us through a discipline bag skate. Towards the end of the skate, he came up with a rather weird drill in which the forwards and the defencemen would compete. The forwards were to pass the puck at the blue line to the defencemen, and the forwards were to go up and try to block the shots the defencemen were attempting to bring to the net.

I ended up with a puck to the face. When it happened, I also drove myself to the hospital. I got evaluated and I was told that I had a double jaw fracture. I drove to the pharmacy to get medicine, and I had to head home for recovery.

When I came back from my injury, I learned that the team, which was supposed to have warned my teachers about my incapacity to attend my classes.... Actually, I learned that I had failed all my exams, so I ended up quitting school. The emotional turmoil and the anger I felt coming back had me quit the team I was playing for. I ended up playing for the BCHL, but it was really hard to get a release because the team owned my rights as a player, and they were trying to sell me.

I have a question from my time in the BCHL. Why is it that I lost my eligibility to go play college hockey if the CHL players aren't considered professional athletes or employees?

As I have shared with you, CHL players are required to be devoted and to sacrifice their bodies to help their team win. These are the conditions CHL players work under. This is why the players in the CHL need a third party to represent the players to make sure these issues don't happen again.

I recommend that this committee evaluate the CHL and recognize the players as federal employees so that they can have additional protection. This would then entitle CHL players to be federal employees under the federal labour code.

Thank you for your time.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Mr. Gobeil.

Now we go to Boxing Canada. We have Christopher Lindsay, executive director.

Mr. Lindsay, you have five minutes.

4 p.m.

Christopher Lindsay Executive Director, Boxing Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the invitation to appear before the committee and contribute to the important mission of providing a safe and abuse-free sport system to Canadians.

Boxing Canada is the national governing body for the sport of Olympic-style boxing. Our goal is to promote, organize and coordinate the advancement of its members of all levels and ages. Our mission is for Canada to become a world-leading boxing nation. We promote, encourage and develop lifelong participation and the highest proficiency in the pursuit of excellence amongst our members.

The protection of physical and psychological safety of all of Boxing Canada’s participants is critical and foundational. Our programming ranges from physical literacy programs for children to national teams proudly winning medals on the world stage to active-for-life participants who coach, officiate and still work the bag for fitness.

The culture of boxing is inherently inclusive. From our esteemed Olympians to our fitness-only programs, everyone is welcome. Boxing gyms across our country cater to every possible demographic group, and Boxing Canada proudly runs programs regardless of gender, income or cultural background. Providing safe spaces for young people to develop confidence, learn self-discipline and meet their individual fitness goals is inherent to our success.

To be completely clear, boxing involves hitting our opponents and, as our athletes remind me, taking a few punches from time to time. Needless to say, boxing has a robust and rigorous series of concussion screening and medical checks. We are proud of the protocols put in place by our officials and coaches to protect the long-term health of our participants.

In recent years, however, those protocols and polices have been expanded to meet a holistic understanding of health. Boxing Canada has adopted, reviewed and reinforced policies and practices to best protect all of our participants.

This has led Boxing Canada to adopt and enact policies that provide structure and accountability for our participants and to our funding partners. These include the adoption of third party reporting; compliance with the abuse-free sport program; a screening policy for our participants; a whistle-blower policy to encourage participants to speak up about potential issues; a diversity, equity, and inclusion policy to check that we are aware of possible barriers to participation; and a gender equity policy to ensure that representation is present at all levels of our organization.

To help us gauge blind spots in our self-evaluation, we have strengthened our athlete representation and engaged ITP in an independent cultural review. Boxing Canada was in the first cohort of sports to go through the cultural assessment and audit tool available through Own The Podium. Our experience with self-reflection has been difficult, profound, but ultimately positive.

No organization, including Boxing Canada, is perfect. Some participants have had negative experiences in our programs. All sport leaders bear responsibility for the situations that have surfaced in our sport. We are committed to preventing these situations in the future.

As a new leader in our NSO, I am personally committed to having an environment that protects the physical and psychological health and safety of every one of our participants. However, efforts to protect our members will never be complete. Measuring outcomes, incorporating feedback from our participants and evolving the standards of practice are a responsibility that boxing humbly and gratefully accepts.

The foundation upon which boxing will fulfill our mission, vision and goals is safe sport.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

I will now go to Mélanie Lemay.

Ms. Lemay, you have five minutes, please.

4:05 p.m.

Mélanie Lemay Co-founder, Québec contre les violences sexuelles

Good morning.

My name is Mélanie Lemay. I'm a Ph.D. student in sociology and co-founder of Québec contre les violences sexuelles.

When it comes to hockey and football, for much of my youth and professional life, I have witnessed the consequences of toxic culture in sport. Over the years, a number of men have confided to me that they were traumatized by what was done to them when they were young during hazing activities, and by what they had to do to others for fear of what would happen to them if they refused.

I'm going to describe indoctrination that starts very early on. Young people age 10 to 12 had hardcore pornography and group masturbation sessions organized for them. In the classroom, certain players were challenged to snap little girls' bra straps, rub up against them or slap their behinds, in addition to masturbating under their desks or on the bus. I heard about acts of bestiality involving a 14‑year-old boy at the time. Then there's the “toast ritual” of eating grapes or olives that have been inside another player's anus. I've also heard of a case where someone had to choose between penetrating a sexually diverse individual who had been invited for the occasion or being sodomized by a broomstick.

After off-season tournament victories, the excesses were commonplace and conducive to all kinds of violence: fights, alcohol and drug abuse, assault and gang rape, all in the name of the “boys will be boys” principle or because excellence in sport justified it. I also learned that some teams kept Excel files recording young people's sexual prowess with their conquests, shared videos their conquests didn't know about, or exchanged intimate photos they received, just like they were hockey cards.

I don't need to say how much psychological distress the girls they targeted experienced, especially since their peers considered them responsible for the violence they faced, particularly because of the systemic sexism environment in which we were all immersed. Plus, because of the inequities that still remain between men's and women's sports, student athletes have been convinced not to file a complaint so as not to reflect badly on star players or the sport programs that put the institution on the map. Funding, reach and a sense of belonging were at stake for administrators, far ahead of young people's safety and integrity.

A number of young people have also told me how hard it was for them to assume their own sexual identity or to confront their teammates who were causing problems, due to the strict pecking order in the locker room and the bro code. That brotherhood is impenetrable because, at the end of the day, it's bros before hos. Even coaches have little control over this, and some of them encourage this kind of code because they are convinced it builds team spirit.

While it's a hard truth to hear, this violence occurs daily on sports teams, in our schools, in our extracurricular activities, in leagues and, ultimately, wherever sports are played. Before they become athletes, these young people go to school, and the absence of limits and frameworks fosters an environment where impunity prevails.

Based on the information gathered for the investigation report on École Saint-Laurent, we have no official mechanisms for sharing information among sports federations, educational institutions, the government and complaint handling mechanisms. As a result, complaints can be filed with any of those bodies, including the I File a Complaint platform on the Sport'Aide website, without informing the other parties involved. Therefore, multiple reports of unacceptable behaviour by a coach or athlete can be made without them ever having to undergo a thorough or special investigation.

Fortunately, we do have solutions. Now more than ever, child grooming must be officially recognized as a criminal act, and the same is true for psychological and online violence. Athlete status must be formally recognized as a form of moral authority, and coaches must be held accountable for their actions. They must be in a registry, both domestically and internationally. We urgently need to redefine the very meaning of athletic excellence, its values and, above all, how we keep athletes safe.

Furthermore, the law is not designed to prevent injustice. It's only there once we've failed as a society to protect our most marginalized individuals and the crime has already been committed. That's why it's on all of us to stop the violence from happening. A new branch of law focused on gender-based violence must emerge and integrate clear protocols, along with resources adapted to the daily lives of young people to hear what they reveal and to support them, as well as complaint mechanisms that meet victims' needs.

Any amendments to the Canada Health Act, the Physical Activity and Sport Act or any other federal legislation must create safe, integrated, specialized and culturally aware spaces. They must also pull together the various assistance services, while bringing together the various perspectives and therapeutic approaches that victims need to truly be at the centre of the process. We need to create a service corridor.

In addition, the provinces absolutely must pass legislation to protect young people in schools, as recommended by La voix des jeunes compte, a group of young people who have been fighting sexual violence for over four years now.

In short, with support from documentary filmmakers at Les Studios Seaborn, who helped me make the documentary Pour une culture du consentement dans le hockey et dans le sport en général, the strategy is to learn from our mistakes and improve our game for the next match. All we need to do is apply that to our laws and to life in general. It's time for our sports to become a reflection of our national pride again.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

Everyone is on time today, and actually even quicker than they need to be. I appreciate that.

We're going to go to the question-and-answer segment right now. The first segment is a six-minute segment. You will have six minutes for questions and answers, so I urge you all to be as concise as you possibly can to get as many questions and answers into the timeline as possible.

I'll begin with Rachael Thomas for the Conservatives.

You have six minutes. Go ahead, please, Rachael.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for you, Mr. Lindsay, through the chair.

It's come to our attention, looking at past articles in the news, that there was quite the scandal that took place that came to light. In spring of 2022, there were over a hundred letters that were written to Sport Canada from athletes within Boxing Canada. Those letters outlined situations of abuse or of misconduct within the organization, specifically regarding Daniel Trépanier.

I'm curious as to how Boxing Canada dealt with that when you had hundreds of letters coming out.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Boxing Canada

Christopher Lindsay

Thank you for the question.

The situation any time we have so many athletes coming forward with allegations is serious, and we need to listen and to investigate. To the best of my understanding, as I was not part of the organization at that point, Boxing Canada engaged with an investigation after putting that employee on suspension. At the end of that investigation, a decision was made to try to move the program in a different direction, which has led to a replacement of that high-performance director position.

During the time of that investigation, Boxing Canada had also turned over one of its coaches and had engaged with the third party company, ITP, which is our designated third party investigative agency, in order to start a long-term study of the culture of boxing writ large within the program.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Has that study wrapped up?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Boxing Canada

Christopher Lindsay

It has not wrapped up. They actually called me within the first week of my job saying, “Here's where we're at. Sorry that it's taken so long”. My response was, whatever you need in order to get this done, let's get it done.

During that time was when we actually engaged with the CAAT, a culture assessment and audit tool, which is a little more focused on the high-performance program as opposed to boxing writ large. We have received the report back from them, which through that process goes to staff, and the staff is using that as a basis not only to look back on policy changes that had been enacted in the past couple of years but also to chart out a course for future changes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Lindsay, I can appreciate that you came after this incident took place, but I would imagine that you looked at historical documents and that you have a fair understanding of the context you stepped into.

I'm curious. Did Sport Canada reach out to the organization after receiving hundreds of letters?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Boxing Canada

Christopher Lindsay

I have not seen any evidence one way or another that they did or did not.

I could certainly ask more questions about that change.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I would love that, yes. If you could report back to the committee, that would be wonderful. Thank you.

Again, I would imagine you have looked at financials. It seems part of your responsibility. Yes...? Perfect.

I'm curious if Sport Canada...if there were any repercussions with regard to funding based on those letters that were submitted.