Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2025

[Warren Sonoda]

Can we not do both? Can we not do the same thing on both sides? Can we not spur innovation and also protect the creators? Would it not be great if you were compensated for your work if it were mined?

As a director, I assign my rights as a director over to a producer. I'm paid for that. I'm paid very well for that, but I've spent 30 years directing for the ability to do that. What we're talking about are the good-paying jobs that are in the balance of whatever is decided by this committee in terms of the $5.1 billion or the $11 billion and all across the board. These are Canadians doing really good work trying to make and tell the Canadian story. I'm wondering if we can't do both at the same time.

[Eric Chan]

I don't think anything needs to be changed, because it's working as it should, as I mentioned. May I say, though, that if there was anything we could do here, if there was a compensation thing we could create, then maybe this would be an opportunity to look at new technologies—perhaps blockchain. There's something we could look into in terms of enabling decentralization, cutting out the middle people and then compensating artists. If there is a way to gain access to what AI is using...but this is a new playground. It's a whole new realm of discussion.

That's how I feel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is a really enlightening discussion.

Mr. Bischoff, we want to save jobs. We want to save human talent in all the cultural industries. We also want to preserve copyright management. We want to help artists and rights holders get what they deserve.

Also, as you said earlier, we especially don't want to hinder the development of a tool that everyone wants to use, responsibly, of course.

Nevertheless, we too have to contend with the fact that these big tech developers are foreign-owned, usually by the Americans, sometimes by the Chinese.

We will forever be battling a giant, will we not?

Do we even have a chance of winning?

Do you think it's possible for Canada to bring in legislation or a regulatory framework that will allow everything we want to allow, but not prevent what we don't want to prevent?

[Samuel Bischoff]

Yes, I absolutely do.

I think it is possible to develop a framework to manage this. Principles around that are actually emerging, ethical and responsible AI, for example.

As you mentioned, cultural sovereignty is a real concern, and it gives rise to some pretty fundamental questions. It's important to clearly identify what it means to control our stories, our viewpoint. It's important to know what the databases are trained on and the types of creative works we are talking about.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

The digital giants that develop these technologies have no desire to get bogged down in details and worry about things like our Quebec francophone culture, or our Quebec or Canadian identity. They want to keep moving. They don't want to have regulations get in their way.

How do we get them to work with us, to understand that many parts of the world have different realities?

[Samuel Bischoff]

You need clear requirements that ensure transparency around how the AI systems work. It goes beyond creative industries, as we are seeing. The risk is there.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Canada can't do it on its own. Everyone has to join forces.

Mr. Sonoda, I can see you'd like to jump in, so please go ahead.

[Warren Sonoda]

You support Canadian voices is what you do. You double down on the talent here. There are four of us, and there are four million behind us who are talented and can do many, many different things.

What can we do? We can make sure that safeguards and all these different things that we put forth as suggestions—that you can do right now with this committee—get implemented, so that we are protected and I can continue to tell stories and Eric can create art and Paul can make phenomenal video games. We need those safeguards in place.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Mrs. Thomas, you have five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Awesome. Thank you very much.

Mr. Fogolin, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and more on wanting to dig into the specific economic opportunity that AI presents to the gaming industry. With AI driving new efficiencies and creative possibilities, what kinds of economic potential do you see in that?

[Paul Fogolin]

One of the reasons I shared that statistic in my opening remarks—the $260-billion global market for games and rising—is that I wanted to impress upon you that this is a growth industry, but also that it's highly competitive. In order to meet that demand and to be a country that continues to be one of the best.... Look, I'm fortunate enough to do a lot of work with colleagues internationally, with other associations like ours, in Korea, the U.S., Europe, etc. When we're together, they always say, “Hey, Canada, you guys are doing something right.” It's a combination of our policy framework and the supports that are available.

To your question about AI, again, some of these tools are in the nascent stages on the generative AI side, and some have been used for over a decade. It's just part of a more robust tool kit that allows our creators to do the best work they can. Again, limiting the ability for creators to access these tools, to experiment with these tools, all within the auspices and confines of the law and the legal framework, would be a challenge for the industry and perhaps for further opportunity for growth.

Conscious of time, I remember that there was a witness last Monday—Dr. Kearney was her name—and I thought her testimony was fascinating. She's obviously way more of a technical expert than I am. These technologies can be used not just by the larger companies, but by indies, by smaller studios, to help them develop games in a more affordable way. I think that's an important part of telling our Canadian story, as we were talking about. There's some real opportunity.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I think you touched on something really important there, and I want to give you the opportunity to expand on it.

That is, when we have these conversations around Canada's arts and culture sector and how AI impacts it, we have to remember we're part of a global society. Those who are producing here in Canada are competing not just among themselves under the rules of this country but globally, with other creators in other nations with other rules.

As we, as legislators, consider making those rules and making sure that we're giving you folks greater opportunity to compete and win, what do we need to account for in terms of that global picture?

[Paul Fogolin]

Yes. Thanks. I'm really glad you asked this question. It picks up on a question that MP Diotte was asking earlier about global comparators.

My members haven't said to me, “This country is doing it right and let's copy them.” What they have said to me is what you've mentioned: Our industry is so global. I mentioned the statistic that 88% of all the games we make in Canada are sold around the world. What's also neat is that because the industry is predominantly digital, with the click of a button you're on a digital storefront; you're on your phone or you're on your console. You can do so tariff-free, might I add, anywhere around the world.

These companies operate with global perspectives, so when you're thinking about any potential policy change, any regulations legislation, please look at what's happening elsewhere—I know you do as part of the process—and try to align with others. Being a first mover can have its advantages in some spaces, but in this space, because of the global nature of our business and others, I think it's essential that you look at what's going on around the world.

The other thing I'd say as well is that if we were to do something that stifles creative access to these technologies, it could put us at a disadvantage, because of how competitive the industry is. Because of how eager our members and creators are to use these tools, we want to make sure that they're able to do so.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I guess I'm curious as well to lean into that a little more. How can the gaming sector, but also other sectors—maybe even learning from the gaming sector—lean into AI for that economic competitive advantage?

[Paul Fogolin]

As somebody said, we're all smart here today. I don't feel equipped to speak for other sectors, but definitely for the video game sector, one thing is that our industry has been at the forefront of this unique marriage of tech and art. Oftentimes, because of that, we don't necessarily know where to find a home in government when we're talking. Is it ISED? Is it Heritage? Without leaning into the technological advances, we couldn't be where we are in Canada as a global leader in making games.

It's funny. In preparing for this, I was thinking about Nvidia. Everybody knows about Nvidia. Is it the largest company in the world for AI? It's one of them. What did Nvidia do for most of its existence? It made graphics cards for PCs, cutting-edge graphics cards. They iterated on that, and they were some of the best in the business.

Our players are always looking at tech. They're looking at innovations. Is this game faster? Is it more immersive?

Again, to your question, AI is just part of the broader tool kit, whether it is new engines for games or new ways to incorporate the works that musicians are doing, like motion capture. You're probably all familiar with motion capture. You put the suits on and you're able to get realistic movement. AI is actually helping to make that process smoother and more realistic. In being able to correct some of the things that would take hours, it makes them smoother and more realistic. It helps with the development pipeline and helps creators make games more quickly and more efficiently.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Mr. Myles, it's over to you, for five minutes.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have so many questions.

I want to speak a bit to this idea of innovation. I would argue that the film industry has also leaned into innovation wherever it can, as visual arts. Mr. Chan has been speaking and is a great example of someone who's leaning forward into all of these things.

One thing I've admired about the video game sector, and we talked about this a couple of weeks ago as well, is that it has remained monetized in a way that other sectors haven't quite experienced.

What's been the key for you to have maintained control of your IP? It hasn't really suffered the same effect as some of the piracy that we've seen in other sectors. What's been the key to that?

[Paul Fogolin]

That's another great question. They're all good questions today.

Again, the games industry is super competitive. What we've seen in the last number of years especially is the proliferation of digital distribution and a number of digital storefronts. It used to be that you had to go to the store. You had to get the box. That's still an important part of the industry, the physical retail space. Now, developers and publishers can get their games to a wider audience, as I said, at the click of a button. Those are your AAA titles that are full price, but it's also for our smaller creators.

I mentioned those Canadian studios. Some of them have one to five people working in basements, garages or wherever, and they're able to do so. They can also price it accordingly. They can adapt the pricing to how the market will respond to their game.

In addition to that, you have platforms like Game Pass, which Microsoft offers, where you pay a subscription fee and you get access to a whole library of games, like a Netflix type of service. A lot of the members have been smart to reach out not just to the big titles, but also to some of these indie creators to add variety, diversity and perspective to these platforms.

If my members were answering this question, they'd say, listen, it's not always easy to make money in the industry. Again, it's entertainment. It's competitive. Some games hit and some don't, whether they're big or small. Being able to innovate and access these platforms to appeal to that global market makes a huge difference.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

Thank you.

I have another question. I'll speak to Mr. Chan and Mr. Sonoda for a second about authorship. I'm going to change direction.

Is there a point at which, when you look at generative art from other artists, you don't see the author? At what point do you feel when you're authoring a piece of work.... How do you maintain control as the creator? Do you look at other generative art and go, no, someone else is creating that. It's AI.

There must be a line. How are we going to determine authorship?

This is something that Monsieur Généreux has been talking about as well in the committee.

[Eric Chan]

I'm the one person you speak of, by the way. I look at other people's work in generative art and I go, that's cool. Wow. I don't really think about the authorship side of things.

I'm more curious about what tools the person used to create that. Was it AI? Was it pure computer code? Was it a mix? Again, I see it as the tools that the person used, and I get curious.

The fine line between authorship and creating is a natural result of that individual. Every artist seems to have a particular style. They start to create with the tools they get. I like to think they start to get to know their tools. They start to develop their signature style in the tools they use.

If you want to talk about authorship, then perhaps that is one way of looking at it. My pieces are generative, but it's a mix between hand drawn and generative. People see this as an interesting juxtaposition: His work has hand-drawn flower elements but he's using algorithms to change the colours and permutations of the positioning.

It doesn't matter what tool you use. As the artist, you will have your own DNA of your expression. If you want to say, that's mine to own, then all power to you.

That's how I see it. I really see it like that.

[Warren Sonoda]

Authorship is very simple for the DGC. A director and writer are the authors of the work. They're human.

I would like to riff off what you were saying about competitiveness from the earlier question. One thing to make Canada competitive is to make sure we have legal certainty and stability here. We should make sure that when we do work here creatively, we have a framework that everyone's playing under, so that we can do our work and not be worried about the legal ramifications and putting safeguards in place.

Also, we were talking about looking at other world examples. We should learn from some of them, too, because it doesn't always go well when they implement AI legislation.

Samuel, I don't know if you want to talk about the U.K.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

We're out of time for this round. Thank you.

Mr. Généreux, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.