Evidence of meeting #4 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was content.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Eatrides  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Shortliffe  Vice-President, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Hutton  Vice-President, Consumer, Analytics and Strategy, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rachael Thomas

I will bring the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number four of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. I am replacing Ms. Hepfner for this meeting. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. I do not believe we have anyone with us today via Zoom; we are all here in the room.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting for a briefing on the implementation of the Online Streaming Act from the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the CRTC.

It is my pleasure to welcome Ms. Vicky Eatrides, chairperson and chief executive officer. She is accompanied by Mr. Scott Hutton and Mr. Scott Shortliffe. Welcome.

In just a moment, I'll give the floor to you, and I believe it is up to the three of you to determine how you wish to split your time. You have 10 minutes for opening remarks.

You can begin.

Vicky Eatrides Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Thank you very much, and good afternoon. Thank you for having us here with you today.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered here on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

As mentioned, I am joined by the Scotts today. Scott Shortliffe is our head of broadcasting, and Scott Hutton is head of consumer, analytics and strategy. We are very pleased to be here to update the committee on the implementation of the Online Streaming Act.

Before getting into committee members' questions, perhaps I could share a brief overview of the CRTC, some of the work we are doing, and some of the detail on our progress.

I'll start with a quick overview of the CRTC. As you know, the CRTC is an independent, quasi-judicial tribunal that regulates the communications sector in the public interest. We hold public consultations on telecommunications and broadcasting matters, and we make decisions based on the public record.

The commission consists of nine members. There is a chairperson, a vice-chair for broadcasting, a vice-chair for telecommunications, and six regional members who are located across the country. The commission is supported by a team of expert staff who help us make informed decisions.

We are moving quickly to make those decisions, because we know that Canadians and businesses need certainty. At the same time, we are consulting broadly before making these major decisions. We are listening to diverse voices to better understand how changes in the communications landscape affect Canada's broadcasting system.

I know that we're here to talk about broadcasting. However, let me just briefly touch on some of our other priorities, such as promoting competition and affordability in telecommunications and empowering consumers.

In our meetings with Canadians, people spoke about the critical need for high‑quality Internet and cellphone services to find employment, access health care and education, feel safe and stay connected with loved ones. They also spoke about the consequences of not having a reliable connection. Those stories are troubling.

To address these issues, we've helped provide Canadians with more choice for Internet and cellphone services. We've allowed competitors to sell plans using the networks of large telecommunications companies. We're seeing positive movement in the market. For example, according to Statistics Canada, prices for cellphone services decreased by 16.7% between 2023 and 2024.

At the same time, we want to ensure that we have a healthy and innovative industry. We've put measures in place to make sure that companies keep investing in high‑quality networks.

Making sure that Canadians have access to high‑quality networks and a variety of choices is a significant part of the equation. The other part is making sure that Canadians can easily find these choices and switch to plans that meet their needs without the risk of unexpected high bills.

Last year, the Canadian Radio‑television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, launched a comprehensive consumer protections action plan to address these issues. This is a crucial area of our work that will remain a focus for the CRTC.

That is a small glimpse into our work on the telecommunications side, but I know that this committee wants to focus on broadcasting.

As you know, Parliament gave the CRTC a major task when it entrusted us with implementing the Online Streaming Act. The act requires us to modernize Canada's broadcasting framework and ensure that online streaming services make meaningful contributions to Canadian and indigenous content. Modernizing the decades-old regulatory framework is no small task. The changes that are required are substantial, and they are complex.

Given this responsibility, we responded within days of the passage of the bill by launching a regulatory plan to facilitate participation and to increase transparency, and we have been making progress on that plan. We have launched 15 public consultations and have held four public hearings. At just those four public hearings, we received over 1,000 written interventions and heard oral presentations from over 300 interested parties.

We know that, following these public proceedings, people are very interested to see our decisions. We have issued seven decisions so far that start to set out the foundation of the future broadcasting framework, and other major decisions are coming very soon.

One of the first key decisions was on base contributions, which helped bring online streaming services into the broadcasting system. That decision was based on over 360 written submissions and over 120 presentations that we heard during a public hearing that lasted three weeks.

Based on the evidence provided, the CRTC determined that online streaming services should make initial contributions to the broadcasting system and that those contributions should be directed to areas of immediate need, which include local news on radio and television, French-language content and indigenous content. The decision will result in an estimated $200 million annually flowing into the broadcasting system.

That decision was just the beginning. Over the summer, we issued two additional decisions to support local news on radio and television, particularly in smaller markets, where there are fewer options. We know how important news is. We hear this from Canadians across the country, and we're sure that committee members do, as well.

As well as issuing those decisions in June and August, we have also been busy holding public hearings.

The first hearing, in May, was three weeks long and focused on the definition of Canadian content for television and streaming. We heard a wide range of views on how the system can better support and promote our stories and on the investments needed to encourage a variety of productions and business, broadcast and distribution models.

We also heard about tools needed to support certain types of Canadian programming. We considered complex issues such as the impact of artificial intelligence and the role of intellectual property in the broadcasting sector.

The second major hearing, in June, explored the dynamics among the different types of players in the Canadian broadcasting system. What we heard will help us create a sustainable model for the delivery and discoverability of diverse Canadian and indigenous content. The results of this hearing will help ensure equitable access to the broadcasting system and promote a fair and competitive marketplace with an updated dispute resolution framework.

Lastly, the third hearing, which wrapped up earlier this week, focused on radio and audio streaming services. We heard a variety of views on how to define Canadian content for music. We also considered the major changes in the industry and the impact of streaming services.

These three recent public hearings are key to ensuring a modern and sustainable broadcasting system for Canada.

The decisions flowing from these consultations and others will be issued in the coming weeks and months. In fact, within days you will see a decision that helps address the administrative burden on radio stations, so stay tuned.

To wrap up, we are doing work on multiple fronts. I touched on a few of those fronts, but the list is long.

As we continue to prioritize the implementation of the legislation that has been entrusted to us by Parliament, we are also taking action in other areas—such as the Online News Act, the service outages and the broadband fund—and making it easier for people to participate in CRTC proceedings.

Again, we're moving quickly, because we know that Canadians and businesses need certainty. At the same time, we are consulting broadly. As a quasi-judicial tribunal, we know that better decisions are made when we listen to individuals, when we listen to businesses and when we listen to organizations that bring diverse perspectives to the conversation. We are always listening to what Canadians need, and we know that committee members are, as well.

We look forward to your questions. Thank you.

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

I don't know the cause, but we can hear a sort of high‑pitched sound. We could also hear it when you were speaking at the start, Madam Chair. I didn't want to interrupt Ms. Eatrides. However, I would like us to take the utmost care to prevent any hearing‑related accidents.

I would like someone to check this before we continue. This high‑pitched sound could cause significant damage to the interpreters' hearing, for example.

David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB

Madam Chair, I believe that it's probably caused by the sound volume in the room. We can lower it a bit.

It's feedback, because it's coming through the PA and then back into the microphone, something I've experienced before. It's never fun. If we turn it down in the room, it will probably happen less. I think that's what's going on.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

We're going to suspend for one moment and try to resolve this before we continue.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

We are back.

At this point, I will give the floor to Mr. Waugh.

Mr. Waugh, you have six minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome again, Ms. Eatrides and the two Scotts.

It's coming up to three years for you, Ms. Eatrides, as the CEO of the CRTC.

You mentioned that “online streaming services should make initial contributions to the broadcasting system”. Is that $200 million? Saying “should make” tells me that we're not sure. In your speech, you said “should make initial contributions”. Saying “should” tells me that it's up in the air. Is that true?

Scott Shortliffe Vice-President, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Perhaps I'll answer, sir.

The decision was that they have to contribute 5% of their annual revenue. We estimated that it is roughly $200 million. Of course, it will change from year to year.

When we made that decision, we asked that the amounts be paid out by the end of the broadcast year, which would have been the end of August this year. The streaming companies did seek a stay in court, which they have a perfect right to do. The court granted it. We are waiting for the Federal Court of Appeal to rule on the issues they've raised.

Until that decision is made, the money has not actually flowed into the system completely, so we cannot give a complete account of whether it is $200 million or a bit more or a bit less, although we will be doing that once that issue is resolved.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK

Thank you, Scott.

It just seems to me that the more money you hand out, the worse the local news is in this country. I don't have to tell you what happened in Lloydminster and Medicine Hat this year. They lost television stations that were there for 60 and 70 years.

Ms. Eatrides, you were saying that the CRTC cares about local news. Tell that to the laid-off employees. Tell that to Lloydminster and Medicine Hat people who have followed CHAT and CKSA for years. They just went dark overnight. Stingray, along with Pattison, just pulled the plug. They came in and said, “We're done. We can't make it go anymore.”

I just gave you two examples. Those are great examples, because this just happened this spring. What do you say to those people when you say that you want to help local news? I just gave you an example of probably 50 people laid off and communities now not being served by independent media. They're being served by the public broadcaster: CBC walked in. There is an issue I have when a public broadcaster with, let's face it, an advantage of millions of dollars, walks into these markets because these other broadcasters have shut down.

What are your thoughts on those two? I'm getting inundated with emails.

4:45 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

We are equally concerned about local news. In speaking with Canadians—I'm sure committee members hear about this often—we hear about the importance of local news: on-the-ground news when there are wildfires and other disasters. People are learning from local news and from radio about what's happening on the corner of their street and when they actually need to evacuate. We've heard this from people, so we are concerned about the state of local news.

As mentioned, in the base contribution decision, we decided that one area of immediate need was news. That is why we directed a certain portion of that initial base contribution to news. We've issued decisions recently, in June and August, for news, for TV as well as radio, and we can talk a bit about the support that we're bringing there.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK

Okay, so local news.... The CRTC is all about local news. Why, then, is the CTV network showing American football all day Sunday and all night Monday? We don't get any local news out west, from Saskatoon on. I pay for a TSN subscription, but TSN is also owned by Bell Media, as you know, and they made the decision to have NFL-style football all day Sunday, meaning no newscasts. Also, tonight, on Monday, there are no newscasts: “We're going to show American football.” Who approved that?

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Scott Shortliffe

Thank you very much for the question. I think it's a question that a lot of people have.

To explain a bit how we approach news, we try to make sure that news is supported through all of our licensing decisions, and we're building that into our decisions now and directing more money towards it, as Chairperson Eatrides said.

Once that is done, we will be looking at implementing all the changes through the broadcasting system by looking at everyone's conditions of licence. I have a suspicion that when we look at Bell's conditions of licence, this will be raised—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK

I'm raising it. I've raised it.

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Scott Shortliffe

Yes, and certainly it will be something on the public record for us to discuss.

We have to be careful, though, as a tribunal, not to pronounce in advance where we may or may not go with that. I think there's a lot of concern about making sure that there is local news available to Canadians and that it is properly supported with journalistic resources. That is absolutely a question that we'll be asking.

Having said that, we don't dictate to private broadcasters exactly how to set up their schedule. We can tell them how to spend money on news—we have and we will—but we don't tell them that they have to program something at a particular hour, because that then would be government stepping into operating a private enterprise.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon South, SK

They are doing so many hours a week of local news, so to pull the pin on a Sunday newscast entirely and Monday at six o'clock is just asinine, in my mind.

Now, the Google money, if I can—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm sorry, Kevin, that is your time. Thank you.

We'll go over to the Liberals for six minutes.

Mr. Al Soud.

Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here. Last week, we had three Andrews. This time, we have two Scotts. We appreciate all of you individually.

I'll get right into it. Bill C-11 is the by-product of a reality that I trust everyone in this room agrees on. The old rules won't work in the new reality we all live in. The Broadcasting Act hadn't been updated since 1991, before streaming, smart phones or YouTube even existed, and if that doesn't reinforce my point, it was before I was born. For decades, Canadian broadcasters carried obligations to invest in Canadian stories, while global platforms held no such responsibility.

I have primarily two questions, also bearing in mind and maybe denoting this committee's upcoming study on AI. Could you speak to the timeliness of this important piece of legislation and how the CRTC is making sure this modernization reflects today's digital reality and will reflect tomorrow's inevitable reality?

4:50 p.m.

Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Vicky Eatrides

Perhaps I'll start with your second question and then turn things over to Scott, our head of broadcasting.

In terms of reflecting the reality, as I mentioned at the outset, we are a quasi-judicial tribunal. We hold public hearings, and that's how we build a public record upon which to base our decisions. We ask very open-ended questions, and we get submissions from a wide range of Canadians, businesses and organizations.

We do ask questions about new digital realities. We've certainly seen artificial intelligence come up as a question. It is something that came up in the context of Canadian content and what the definition is. We did hear a lot of perspectives on that during our three-week hearing in the spring. We are seeing a lot of new.... We're seeing radio hosts that are AI, so it does raise a lot of questions.

We've heard the public discourse and a lot of fear about AI, with people saying that film and television will no longer be made by humans. There's that fear. There's fear around loss of jobs. We've also heard some positive feedback in terms of what AI can do for accessibility and closed captioning and those kinds of initiatives.

We are taking all of these into account. We certainly have been hearing about these new digital realities as part of our public hearings, and that is something we will be coming back to with our decisions.

Maybe I can turn it over to you, Scott.

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Scott Shortliffe

In addressing your first question about timeliness, one of the things we try to build into all of our questions in our public hearings—and we've had, as we said, 15 consultations before, major public hearings—is to try to find out whether anyone has a sense of how things are evolving and has ideas so that we can have rules that will work not just today but in five years. I think we've built up a very interesting public record on that.

Participating in our processes have been Canadian storytellers and a diverse number of artists, but also foreign streamers and academics. It's been crucial for us—and I think for the chairperson or colleagues who, as members of the tribunal, will be voting on this—to hear that this is where people think the industry is going but that no one knows for sure, and therefore that we need to be very careful as we make rules, so they do not have unintended consequences.

I think that, in asking those questions, we've built a record and we believe we'll be able to issue decisions that will have enough flexibility for the future, so that we won't paint ourselves into a corner or create something that will be unsustainable for private sector companies.

Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Thank you. That was very comprehensive.

Bill C-11 needs to level the playing field, promote Canadian culture domestically and globally, support under-represented creators, modernize outdated laws and ensure reinvestment into the Canadian economy. It's a lot.

Could you tell us, plainly, how Canadians stand to benefit from this?

4:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Scott Shortliffe

As you said, it's a lot. When we step back, we try to simplify it. I use the test of whether or not I can go to my dinner table and explain to my family what this bill means.

What I say to them is that the ultimate objective of this bill is to make sure you have choices. You have choices of diverse Canadian content in the future on different platforms, and you have news. You have local news and you have national news. If we can achieve that and keep it sustainable in a global environment that is hyper competitive, that, I think, is the large-scale success we read into the bill that was handed to us.

A big part of that is also keeping the choices Canadians have. Canadians benefit from having an enormous access to content, both within Canada and across the world. Certainly, we don't see a role for us in trying to limit that, but we want to make sure there's an ecosystem that will give them Canadian choices as they go forward.

Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Thank you.

I have a question about content selection. We've seen a roughly 280% increase in French Canadian content on Spotify in the past five years. This clearly shows that French‑language podcasts, music and cultural voices don't simply exist. They're finding their audience.

How will Bill C‑11 ensure that these voices aren't left to chance and that platforms take responsibility?

Scott Hutton Vice-President, Consumer, Analytics and Strategy, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Traditionally, music, for example, has been broadcast on the radio or distributed on physical media. Nowadays, streaming technology offers a way to make it available online and on platforms such as Spotify, as you said.

The Online Streaming Act provides a certain framework, which requires us to ensure that we pay attention to both Canadian cultural products as a whole and the differences between the French‑speaking and English‑speaking markets.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Hutton, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I do have to call time there. Thank you.

Monsieur Champoux, you have six minutes.

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank our three witnesses for joining us today.

Am I right in thinking that it has already been three years since you appeared before the committee?