Evidence of meeting #40 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was spaces.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Santiago Keenan  President and Chief Executive Officer, Secret City Studio
Myette  Executive Director, Marigold Cultural Centre
Messier  President, RIDEAU
Grummett  Performer and Creator, Creepy Boys, So.Glad Arts
Straughan  Executive Director, Theatre Aquarius
Bunce  Artistic and Executive Director, Wavelength Music Arts Projects

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 40 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Before we begin, I'll ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the cards on the table in front of you. They are measures in place to help prevent audio incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters. You will notice that there's a QR code on the card. It links to a short awareness video.

Pursuant to the routine motion adopted by the committee, I can confirm that the witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Finally, the clerk has distributed to the members an operating budget of $32,600 for our current study. I need someone to move this for approval.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Alana Hirtle Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

I so move.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you, Ms. Hirtle.

(Motion agreed to)

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are meeting today for our second meeting on our study of the state of creative and performance spaces across Canada.

With us in the room is Christina Santiago Keenan, president and CEO of Secret City Studio. We also have André Myette, executive director, Marigold Cultural Centre. We have Frédéric Messier, president of RIDEAU, who is joining us online. We have S.E. Grummett from So.Glad Arts in the room with us. Online is Kelly Straughan from Theatre Aquarius, one of my favourite places to go. Jonathan Bunce from the Wavelength Music Arts Projects is with us in the room.

Welcome, everyone. Thank you for being here.

Each of you will have five minutes for an opening statement, and then we'll turn to questions from members. We'll start with Secret City Studio.

You have the floor for five minutes.

Christina Santiago Keenan President and Chief Executive Officer, Secret City Studio

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. It's an honour to speak to you today.

I'd like to present to you a case to consider heritage sites as a platform for immersive experiences, a means to support the next generation of artists and a way to build Canada's performing arts and entertainment industry.

There's a clear generational shift in how people relate to narrative entertainment and to each other. The generation that grew up with the Internet didn't just consume content: They participated in it. They built worlds in Minecraft; they co-wrote fan fiction, and they adventured together in virtual worlds. Audiences no longer want to watch. They want to play a part.

We're seeing this behavioural shift in performing art and entertainment everywhere. In music, Jacob Collier, who's lauded as the modern-day Mozart, sells out concert halls, conducting audiences in live vocal harmonies and producing viral content that reaches millions.

In film and TV, Netflix opened Netflix House last year, with permanent venues where fans can step inside their favourite shows and films, from being a participant in Squid Game to a Hawkins resident in Stranger Things.

In theatre, Punchdrunk transformed a 100,000-square-foot warehouse into a fully immersive set. Sleep No More broke the fourth wall and invited audiences to wander freely and follow characters throughout. This ran in New York and Shanghai for over a decade.

These are not fringe experiments. These experiences have entered the mainstream.

What is the opportunity for Canada?

Disney Experiences—a division with parks, resorts and cruises—posted record operating income of $36 billion last year. They built artificial worlds at enormous costs and became a global destination. Canada already has the real thing: Casa Loma, the Village at Black Creek heritage park, Hatley Castle and 1,000 more across the country. These aren't theme parks. They're authentic heritage sites with real stories.

For over 11 years, Secret City has shown what becomes possible when you merge site-specific storytelling with escape room game mechanics and immersive theatre. We've built a world-class, cross-disciplinary creative team of producers, writers, directors, actors, designers and technologists.

In the tunnels and towers of Casa Loma, you get to play World War II U-boat researchers, join Rocco Perri's prohibition gang or sign up as constables recruited to find Canada's beloved Detective Murdoch. At Old Mill Toronto and Peter Pan bistro, we're reimagining dinner theatre where you get to interrogate characters, investigate your meal as part of a puzzle and try to solve a murder.

We've partnered with Fort Edmonton Park and Heritage Park to launch Canada's largest outdoor escape room as part of their nightlife activation, and we recently launched a family-friendly, screen-free video game called “Lost & Found” at the Village at Black Creek, in which players take on quests from townsfolk as if playing a live RPG.

While we take kernels of history and develop them into more modern narratives, the heart of our stories celebrate our values, culture and what it means to be Canadian. We attract tourists and locals alike, as well as a younger and diverse audience who might not have visited these sites otherwise. The good news is that they keep coming back.

Over the last decade, we've shown that when you activate a heritage space in a way that gives people agency and buy-in, they feel a deeper connection to the stories we tell, the places they're in and the people they're with. You make these places matter to a new generation; you make it profitable, and you create ambitious careers for creatives.

What I'm asking this committee for today is to imagine Canada as a global destination for immersive, location-based art and entertainment where stories come to life not behind a preserved velvet rope, but embodied and experienced. To take practical steps towards this vision, I'd ask this committee to consider updating funding programs so that they include this form of participatory performing arts, to invest in the infrastructure needed to make these heritage sites fit for this purpose and to develop partnership frameworks for artists, organizations and businesses to have shared risk, shared reward and a win-win.

Canada has a rare advantage to meet this new generation where they are. We already own the most compelling stages on earth, and we have a rare opportunity to lead what comes next.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Now I really want to go to one of your theatres.

Voices

Oh, oh!

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

That was great. I kept thinking of more places that would align really well with your idea. Thank you for that.

We'll turn now to the Marigold Cultural Centre.

André Myette, you have the floor for five minutes.

André Myette Executive Director, Marigold Cultural Centre

Thank you.

Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today.

I'm here representing the Marigold Cultural Centre, located in the heart of Truro, Nova Scotia. We are a not-for-profit, multi-purpose facility, housing a 208-seat theatre, an art gallery and education space, and a celebration of local sports heritage. Day in and day out, we see first-hand what happens when a community gathers in a shared physical space to experience the magic of the performing arts.

I did not travel to Ottawa to speak only about our theatre. I'm here because, as a representative of the wider east coast arts ecosystem, I want to share the broader picture of what our sector is facing right now. Our community is feeling a deep sense of uncertainty about the future.

We cannot talk about supporting the next generation of artists without looking at the stability of the infrastructure that supports them. Recently, the cultural sector in Nova Scotia has experienced significant shifts due to the provincial budget. This included notable reductions to arts and cultural funding, including a 30% reduction to Arts Nova Scotia's budget and the conclusion of several creative programs.

Among those changes was the loss of funding for programs such as artists in schools. These initiatives are vital, because they place professional creators in classrooms, sparking the imaginations of young Nova Scotians who might otherwise never have the chance to experience live theatre, music or visual art.

I must note that these latest budget cuts didn't hit us as hard as others, simply because we had recently received a substantial grant the year prior. That funding was ultimately reduced by 20%. Although losing a portion of our funding presents its challenges, we remain incredibly grateful for the support we receive.

However, while the Marigold is in a position to manage this transition for the time being, many of our peers, including smaller community halls, fringe spaces, grassroots festivals and independent galleries across the province are finding it much more difficult to sustain their operations. When regional grants are reduced by 20% to 30%, it impacts the human resources required to keep these doors open. Without these spaces, we risk losing the next generation of Canadian storytellers to other regions or seeing them step away from their crafts entirely.

Nova Scotia has always punched far above its weight culturally. Our province boasts a wealth of talent that has graced the Marigold stage, featuring artists who have gone on to capture the hearts of the audiences nationwide and globally.

I see one right there. Hey, David.

Every household name started as an emerging artist looking for a welcoming local stage to test their voice. Performance spaces are the true incubators for Canadian identity. If we do not protect and preserve these spaces, the next generation of artists loses the very places in which they can safely learn, grow and perfect their crafts.

Furthermore, let's consider the social impact these spaces have on our youth. In an increasingly digital world, younger generations are navigating growing feelings of isolation. Creative spaces offer a meaningful solution. When a teenager walks into our theatre, puts down their phone and engages with a live performance, it builds empathy and connection. They see their own lived experiences reflected on stage and realize they're part of a larger community. We are protecting a vital social and emotional lifeline for our youth by ensuring these spaces stay funded.

We live in a modern, often distanced society. We've been told for years that everything can be streamed, digitized and experienced from afar, but a screen simply cannot replicate the collective experience of a live audience, the shared connection of a dark theatre or the standing ovation that brings a room of strangers together.

Our performance spaces serve as the civic living rooms for our communities. They are places where we connect, find common ground and celebrate our shared humanity.

The federal government has a meaningful role to play in supporting this ecosystem. When local and provincial funding models shift or fail, federal collaboration and systematic support for infrastructure and operations become essential. I urge this committee to view investments in creative spaces not as secondary expenditures but as essential infrastructure for regional economies, our community well-being and our national identity. Nova Scotia certainly needs it now more than ever.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor.

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Madam Chair, I didn't mean to interrupt our witness's remarks.

I would just like to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that the interpreters are doing their best to keep up with the pace in order to provide the most accurate interpretation possible. Perhaps they could keep in mind that speaking more slowly would make it easier for the interpreters to accurately convey the remarks we're listening to so attentively.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you.

Frédéric Messier, from RIDEAU, you now have the floor for five minutes.

Frédéric Messier President, RIDEAU

Madam Chair, members of the committee, RIDEAU is the professional association of performing arts presenters. We represent close to 170 members, including about 100 performance presenters at about 350 performance spaces in Quebec. Together, our members make it possible to raise the curtain over 20,000 times for nearly 5.2 million audience members each year.

Our members are primarily multidisciplinary presenters. This means that, in a single season, they present works from various performing arts disciplines and also help showcase emerging talent. In their communities, they are often the primary professional gateway to the performing arts. Above all, our members are not merely venue managers, they are a fundamental link in the artistic chain. They select the works, take the artistic risks, build audiences and support the touring of productions across Quebec and Canada. They enable works to leave their birthplace to reach audiences in major urban centres and across the regions.

For the next generation of artists, their role is crucial. An emerging artist doesn't just need a space to create; they need a venue willing to program and promote their work, and to take an artistic risk.

Supporting presenters also means supporting the artists and companies that depend on works going out on tour to advance their careers and reach their audiences. That's why our message today is unambiguous: If performance spaces become vulnerable, Canada's entire capacity to support its artists, take its works out on tour and reach Canadian audiences also becomes vulnerable. Unfortunately, this vulnerability is already very palpable.

Yet, presenters make a significant contribution to the economy. A study conducted for RIDEAU by the Canadian Association for the Performing Arts found that its members generate $23.7 million in net tax revenue for various levels of government. Their local impact is also significant. A study commissioned by Réseau Scènes estimates that, each year, its member presenters in the Greater Montreal area generate an average of $2.38 million in indirect economic spinoffs in their communities.

Unfortunately, despite these well-documented contributions, presenters remain underfunded. Before the pandemic, multidisciplinary presenters received less than 30% of their total revenue, on average, from public funding, with barely 2.9% coming from the federal government.

The Canada arts presentation fund is one of the few federal tools that directly recognize the role of organizations that present professional arts festivals or performing arts series. The government has announced a $46.5 million investment in this fund over three years, starting in fiscal year 2026-27.

This is a step in the right direction, but it's still woefully inadequate given the real increase in costs and the responsibilities assumed by presenters. Today, presenters must contend with rising operating costs across the board. The financial model for live performance relies heavily on ticket sales, but according to RIDEAU data, over 70% of any show's revenue is already absorbed by artist fees, royalties and performance rights before presenters can even cover their own expenses.

Now, add to this the issue of maintaining assets and infrastructure. A recent report by Théâtres associés shows that the net cost of performance space management increased by 53% between fiscal year 2017-18 and fiscal year 2023-24, while inflation was at 20.4%. Every dollar spent on maintaining infrastructure is a dollar that doesn't go to programming, artists, emerging talent or audience development. We cannot claim to support the next generation of artists if the spaces that must welcome them, showcase them and help them gain exposure are themselves placed in a state of constant vulnerability.

RIDEAU therefore makes three recommendations.

First, the Canada arts presentation fund should be substantially increased so that it can adequately meet the needs of presenters and reflect the reality of presentation costs, as well as the strategic role presenters play in artists' careers.

Second, a strong federal capacity for cultural infrastructure should be re-established—one that is not limited to specialized equipment but also supports asset maintenance, renovations, universal accessibility, the energy transition, climate adaptation and venue safety.

Third, presenters should be explicitly recognized as essential partners in any strategy for emerging talent. The next generation will not develop solely through creation; they will develop through engagement with audiences, the exposure of works and performance spaces' ability to take artistic risks.

For decades, governments have invested in a network of cultural venues that constitutes a collective heritage, but this network cannot be taken for granted. Without strong performance spaces, there is no way to sustainably guarantee that works gain exposure. Without strong presenters, there is no equitable access to the performing arts. Without engagement with audiences, there is no true career advancement for artists.

Thank you very much. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you.

Next I will turn to So.Glad Arts, and S.E. Grummett is in the room.

You have the floor now for five minutes.

S.E. Grummett Performer and Creator, Creepy Boys, So.Glad Arts

Thank you.

I'm Grumms. I go by S.E. Grummett professionally, and I use the pronouns they and them. I'm a transgender theatre artist from Treaty 6 territory, Saskatoon. I'm here today representing So.Glad Arts, a queer theatre company based in Saskatoon. As well, I'm one half of the performance art comedy theatre duo Creepy Boys.

After graduating from theatre school over a decade ago, I became increasingly frustrated with the limited opportunities for trans artists like myself within mainstream theatre. I wasn't seeing artists like me on stage or the kind of work I wanted to make. I started making and touring my own things. For me, self-creation was and continues to be a way out.

In 2016, I founded So.Glad Arts, an independent theatre company with a focus on creating new queer and queer-led performances. Over the past decade, So.Glad Arts has grown from producing locally to touring on an international scale to 11 different countries, presenting work at some of the biggest arts festivals and venues in the world. As a company, we have also shifted from producing in fringe and indie spaces to more year-round national and international touring, as well as curated festivals, professional commissions and presentations.

In 2024, we received creative export Canada funding for a 10-week U.K. and European tour of our queer clown show, Creepy Boys, touring it to five different countries: Ireland, Iceland, the U.K., Germany and Denmark. This tour allowed us to solidify our profile in the U.K. and Europe, and it allowed us to build relationships with international venues and presenters. One in particular, LiteraturHaus in Copenhagen, has since invited us back for a two-week Denmark tour in 2025 and is presenting our new show, Slugs, later this fall. This includes supporting us in building additional tour stops across Denmark. These relationships with international presenters would not have been possible without this funding. This tour also allowed us to lay the groundwork for future touring and allowed us to build our audiences abroad.

Now, two years later, we are still seeing the real impact of this funding. Last August, we premiered our new show, Slugs, at the largest arts festival in the world, the Edinburgh Fringe, to success far beyond our wildest dreams. For context, the Edinburgh Fringe is an incredibly competitive and difficult market, with over 4,000 different shows in the month-long festival; there is everything from large-scale musicals that end up in the West End to someone's grandma putting on their first-ever show in the basement of a burrito restaurant.

It was here that Slugs sold out its entire run; received 14 four- and five-star reviews, including one from The Guardian; won two awards; and was nominated for the largest award in its category, the Edinburgh Comedy Award. This is often called the “Oscars of Comedy”. Past nominees include Flight of the Conchords, Suzy Eddie Izzard and fellow Canadian Mae Martin. Not only did Slugs have financial and critical success far beyond what we imagined, but we found that the international audience at the festival devoured it, with every single performance ending in a standing ovation. I believe our success with this show is directly related to the funding we received, allowing us to dream bigger and go further.

This international success has continued to open doors at home in Canada that we previously thought to be out of reach for us as scrappy prairie artists. This includes a recent presentation at PuSh International Performing Arts Festival and the upcoming CINARS Biennale, which are some of Canada's largest and most prestigious arts marketplaces. We're currently gearing up for our largest international tour yet in 2026, our second international tour just this year.

I'm a weird kid from the prairies, so I never really imagined myself touring across the country, let alone internationally. Saskatchewan artists are vastly under-represented on both national and international stages, but because of this funding, all of this has been possible. The funding we received from Canadian Heritage—as well as provincial funding and Canada Council for the Arts funding— is the backbone of our recent success and, frankly, our entire careers.

It has taken years of building relationships and gaining international recognition, as well as experience in producing at an increasingly large scale, to prime us for our recent critical and commercial breakthrough. If we did not have the funding to support us through each stage from development to production and touring, it is incredibly unlikely that we would have created the boundary-pushing work we have been so recently recognized for. We likely would never have been able to share that work with an international audience, particularly one that is largely unfamiliar with Canadian performance. Funding has allowed us to ask big questions, take bold risks and be a part of an international conversation about performance.

Abroad, when people talk to us after a show, we are often met with the phrase, “And you're Canadian?” This is meant as a compliment. We always take this as a moment when someone realizes that their perception of what is Canadian, and what Canada is, has changed. This audience member is now offered a window into the complicated, beautiful, intellectual, hilarious mess that is the place we come from. I ask for this committee to ensure that this funding continues to be accessible for small companies—and indie artists—like the one I come from.

With funding like this from Canadian Heritage, I believe we can see more outcomes like ours: emerging voices from unexpected places, work that takes big swings and bold creative risks, and work that is uniquely Canadian and unlike anything else in the world.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you. Congratulations on all your success.

11:20 a.m.

Performer and Creator, Creepy Boys, So.Glad Arts

S.E. Grummett

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

I will turn next to Kelly Straughan from Theatre Aquarius. She is online.

You have the floor for five minutes.

Kelly Straughan Executive Director, Theatre Aquarius

Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Kelly Straughan, and I am the executive director of Theatre Aquarius in Hamilton, Ontario.

For 53 years, Theatre Aquarius has been a cornerstone of Hamilton's arts community. We are the only professional theatre in the city. We own our building, which includes a 702-seat mainstage theatre, a 120-seat studio space, a carpentry shop, a rehearsal hall and a beautiful lobby space. We produce five main-stage shows each season, as well as three studio productions. We employ more than 300 people each year, from artists, directors and designers to production personnel.

We are deeply committed to supporting Canadian artists. In the last five years alone, 22 of the 29 productions on our mainstage were written by Canadians and featured Canadian casts and creative teams.

Theatre Aquarius is also home to the national centre for new musicals, a program dedicated to the development of new Canadian musicals. Since its launch in 2023, we have supported eight new musicals, with more than a quarter of a million dollars in funding. Our commitment to new musicals also extends to our mainstage, including our recent production of It's a Good Life If You Don't Weaken, featuring the music of The Tragically Hip.

Within our community, we are one of the primary supporters of local artists through programs such as our Brave New Works festival, which supports development of new Canadian plays; Biindigan, our indigenous mentorship program; our artist residency program, offering free rehearsal and performance space; our apprentice program, dedicated to supporting IBPOC and female-identifying individuals pursuing careers in technical theatre and production; and our theatre school and summer camps, which engage more than 500 children and youth each year.

Truly, I could go on and on. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The work happening in our theatre extends far beyond what most people see on stage.

While our ambitions continue to grow, the reality of operating our building comes with significant capital pressures. I come to you today as a voice for those of us with venues to make sure we are a part of the conversation.

For example, Aquarius recently undertook a $600,000 roof restoration project to keep the building operational after rain began leaking onto the stage and into our costume storage areas. We also need to replace theatre seating that is more than 30 years old, and we need to install a new elevator. Every year expenses grow, and we cannot raise ticket prices to match the increase. It would make coming to the theatre unaffordable for most people.

The Canada cultural spaces fund provides a valuable support for specialized equipment, but where can arts organizations turn for assistance with essential building repairs and capital needs? Across the country, many arts organizations are operating in aging facilities that require significant investment simply to remain functional. Every dollar spent repairing a roof is a dollar that cannot be invested in artistic programming. For theatres that own and operate their venues, this is an ongoing and difficult reality that directly affects our ability to fulfill our cultural mandate.

What can be done to help theatres across Canada?

Well, I encourage this committee to seriously consider the live performing arts accelerator, a labour tax credit modelled after successful film and television incentives. This credit would offer a 25% tax rebate on production-related labour expenses.

I know this idea is not new to you. The performing arts sector has been advocating for the implementation of this credit for several years. It would be a game-changer for our industry, allowing us to invest more in productions, employ more people and alleviate some of the financial pressures faced by theatres like Aquarius.

It is also worth pointing out that theatre buildings and all the activities held within their walls animate downtowns, create employment and support tourism. We are economic drivers. Last year, approximately 125,000 people attended more than 265 performances at Theatre Aquarius. A full theatre means thriving downtowns. For example, our recent production of the Tragically Hip musical generated an estimated $6 million in economic impact.

The value of the arts is undeniable. The future of Canadian culture depends not only on the artists but also on the spaces that make artistic creation possible. Without support, we risk losing the very foundations that allow Canadian stories to be created and experienced.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today on behalf of Theatre Aquarius.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you for everything that Theatre Aquarius does for Hamilton.

Finally, we have Jonathan Bunce from Wavelength Music Arts Projects here in the room.

You now have the floor for five minutes.

Jonathan Bunce Artistic and Executive Director, Wavelength Music Arts Projects

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. It's wonderful to have the opportunity to speak to you alongside my esteemed colleagues.

My name is Jonathan Bunce. I am the co-founder and artistic and executive director of Wavelength Music, a non-profit organization in Toronto that has supported emerging Canadian artists for more than 25 years through concerts and festivals, and now a conference. I'm also a co-author of two recent research studies on the wider independent live music sector: “Reimagining Music Venues” and a forthcoming report titled “New Sounds, New Spaces”.

Across Canada, there are hundreds of creative and performance spaces that are largely invisible at a policy level. These are grassroots music venues, as well as rehearsal spaces, artist hubs and DIY community cultural spaces. These spaces are where artists develop their craft, build audiences and launch their careers, yet most survive with little to no public support and operate primarily as commercial businesses.

The central finding of our research is simple: Creative and performance spaces are cultural infrastructure, but Canada largely treats them as commercial real estate. This creates what I would call a “value-capture” problem.

The Canadian live music sector generates more than $10 billion annually and supports over 100,000 jobs, yet many of the artists, venues and community organizations that generate this cultural activity are the least financially secure participants in this whole system. Too much of the economic value flows elsewhere—to landlords, ticketing companies, multinational promoters and surrounding real estate—while the cultural infrastructure at the foundation of the ecosystem remains chronically undercapitalized.

Our research points to three key challenges.

First, Canada is losing the lower and middle rungs of the cultural ladder. Emerging artists depend on affordable small and mid-sized spaces to perform, rehearse, experiment and build audiences. Despite their high demand, these spaces face rising rents, insurance costs and operating expenses. If we care about the next generation of Canadian artists, then we must care about the spaces in which they get started.

Second, the market alone is not solving the problem. Artists feel that they're underpaid; audiences feel that tickets are too expensive, and venue operators face increasing costs. The issue is not a lack of demand for culture; it's that the economics of providing cultural space no longer work on their own.

We invest in libraries, recreation centres and museums because they produce public benefit. Grassroots performance spaces also produce public benefit, yet they are expected to survive on limited commercial revenue alone. Primarily, that means sales of refreshments.

Accessibility is another consequence of this market failure. In high-cost cities, such as Toronto, cultural organizations are often forced into the oldest and least expensive buildings they can find. Such spaces are rarely fully accessible, forcing operators to choose between affordability and accessibility, when both should be a top priority.

When we look internationally, particularly to countries in Europe, we see a different approach. Local governments frequently provide underutilized buildings to cultural organizations at low cost and support them with ongoing operational funding. These spaces are then able to focus on culture rather than mere survival.

Third, cultural spaces require ongoing stewardship, not just capital funding. The recent insolvency of Artscape in Toronto offers an important lesson. The challenge is not simply building cultural spaces; it's ensuring that they remain affordable and mission-driven 20 years later. Capital funding alone is not enough; long-term operating support matters too.

I'd like to leave the committee with four recommendations.

First, recognize grassroots creative spaces as essential cultural infrastructure.

Second, create dedicated capital and operating support streams for community-based creative and performance spaces. We welcome the ongoing support of the Canada arts presentation fund and the Canada cultural spaces fund, and we would love to see these programs not just renewed but have their budgets increased to match not only inflation but also the economic realities we live in now in the 2020s.

Third, support a national network approach to cultural infrastructure—music hubs, rehearsal facilities, artist workspaces and performance venues distributed across communities rather than concentrated in a handful of major institutions.

Fourth, develop a national cultural space strategy that supports community ownership, long-term affordable tenancy and operational sustainability. International examples such as the U.K.'s Music Venue Trust or the Trans Europe Halles network demonstrate how community ownership can protect cultural spaces from displacement and rising rents. Canadian examples, such as Hugh's Room Live and It's OK* Studios, both in Toronto, show that similar approaches can work here as well, though they're still in their infancy.

Twenty-five years ago, Ontario's cultural renaissance invested heavily in major institutions, such as the Art Gallery of Ontario and the Four Seasons Centre. A national approach should complement those investments with support for the smaller grassroots spaces in which future generations of Canadian artists will be developed. It's time for a cultural renaissance 2.0.

In closing, Canada is known globally for our successful work to support artistic creation and presentation. We've been less successful at supporting the essential physical spaces in which culture grows. Europe doesn't simply subsidize art; it also subsidizes the spaces in which art happens. If we fail to invest in those spaces, we risk losing the infrastructure that makes Canadian culture possible in the first place.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner

Thank you.

We will now turn to questions from members, starting with Mrs. Thomas for six minutes.

You have the floor.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you so much.

Thank you to each of you for taking the opportunity to come here today to share your successes as well as your needs and the opportunities that you see within the industry.

My first questions are for S.E. Grummett.

You talked quite a bit about your success overall and the fact that federal funding helped make it possible for you to take your show, Creepy Boys, to places in Europe and the U.K. Did you say Iceland as well?

11:30 a.m.

Performer and Creator, Creepy Boys, So.Glad Arts

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

That's very cool.

In terms of taking that funding and exporting a product, you talked about its being uniquely Canadian. Talk about the show itself and how it's a reflection of Canada's culture.

11:30 a.m.

Performer and Creator, Creepy Boys, So.Glad Arts

S.E. Grummett

It's a reflection of Canada's culture because it's made by two Canadians. This is the thing I feel strongly about: When we go internationally, people have an assumption of what Canada is, because it's what we've been putting out there forever, but it's two scrappy little queer guys. Anything we do on stage is very distinctly different, and it's connecting deeply with audiences internationally.

We really try to put Canadian art in a box, but anything that exists outside of that also deserves to be funded, because it shows that this place is more than one thing. It's more than just polite, nice theatre performances, music and dance. It can be anything, and it can be everything.