Evidence of meeting #6 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Innovation, Alliances and Futurs, Sporobole, ArtIA
I would suggest that you invite people who are creating models here in Canada. If you wish, I can send you a list of people who work in research centres and artists who collaborate with them to create generative models in both visual arts and music.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
That would be very much appreciated.
Director, Innovation, Alliances and Futurs, Sporobole, ArtIA
I'd be pleased to provide you with those names. In addition, it would allow you to hear voices other than those from the industry. So far, the music industry has taken up a lot of space.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
I'd like to come back to an example I gave at the Monday meeting. I'm not an artist by any stretch of the imagination. Mr. Myles is several miles ahead of me on that. That said, if I were an artificial intelligence whizz, despite my lack of musical knowledge, and had the necessary skills to generate music, for example, would I become an artist? If so, would I be eligible for a licence? Based on what was said here earlier, I understood that I should have a copyright for this, so I'd like to know where my money is. No one sent me anything like that.
I'm joking, but under those circumstances would you consider me an artist?
Director, Innovation, Alliances and Futurs, Sporobole, ArtIA
No, you don't seem to be an artist.
No offence.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
I'm a lot of things, but I'm not an artist, that's for sure.
It's important to understand the purpose of our study. I sat on the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology for several years, until I became a member of this committee last June. The Standing Committee on Industry and Technology studied Bill C‑27, which addressed several interrelated issues, including artificial intelligence. It was a big bill. Clearly, the Liberals didn't do their job properly because they should never have included privacy and artificial intelligence, even though they are interconnected. Artificial intelligence alone needs to be studied, as is the case with the study we are currently conducting. This issue will also be addressed in studies conducted elsewhere in Parliament, including by the Standing Committee on Official Languages. You talked about francophones living in minority situations; protecting them is very important as well.
Anyway, I want to reiterate the purpose of our study and what we're looking for from you and other people in the industry. I'm sure that some people are listening to what is going on in committee today and will be called upon to testify. How can we ensure that our cultural industry is growing across Canada while protecting it, in the current context where we're using artificial intelligence tools? That's the purpose of our study.
Mr. Ducharme, you're right in saying that we must protect our cultural industry, but does it have to go through a government model? Personally, I don't believe that. Can the government participate in that? That's certainly the case.
However, we have a lot of work to do to ensure that we protect our Canadian identity, as well as our Quebec, francophone and francophile identity across Canada.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you for that intervention, Mr. Généreux. We're out of time for an answer.
Mr. Al Soud, you have the floor for five minutes.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'll take a very quick moment to say that you all clearly love what you do and you're surrounded by others in your space who also very clearly love what they do. You want to keep doing it collaboratively. I want you to know we can tell that and we appreciate it.
This has been a lot of fun. There are so many questions and such little time.
Mr. Rogers, I'll go back to you very quickly. I think it's worth emphasizing in the broader context what I believe our intent would be, which is creating a space for AI to grow and for the Canadian industry to lead, without it bearing a cost on Canadian culture or Canadian heritage.
Tech and music do not operate without one another as is. You mentioned the work you do alongside tech already, but could you expand on how Music Canada engages with the cross-sectoral organizations around AI in music, in particular?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
Thank you for the opportunity to talk about this.
The modern record label is a tech company. In order to find fans in Japan, we make use of technology, including AI-engaged technology. We are very excited about what licensed, legal, paying AI models will do for the industry in order to continue human creativity.
After this meeting, I'm going to talk to Mr. Waugh and make sure he understands how great that Brenda Lee example is. There is such opportunity. There are the heartstrings opportunities about losing voices and doing things that really make good advocacy.
A licensed, legal generative service could make Mr. Généreux an artist. We could be excited about that, but all of the inputs, including Mr. Myles's, need to be compensated for Mr. Généreux to become an artist.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Fantastic. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.
Ms. McGuffin, I have a quick question for you.
How realistic do you think it would be for licensed training data at scale...and who do you think should bear that responsibility? Is it platforms? Is it developers? Is it governments? I'm curious on that front.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
I think it's the government making sure there are no loopholes so that tech companies do not have to supply it to labels, publishers and collective management organizations, like SOCAN and CMRRA, who then negotiate those agreements, pull the data in and invest in their own tech to make sure those payments are made.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
We hear very frequently calls for transparency to know whether works were used in AI datasets. Would you support a nutrition label, so to speak, or a disclosure standard for AI-generated content?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Publishers Canada
The role of government in this needs to be reviewed to know exactly how it would be helpful. We often do that already in negotiations in the private sector, but there may be a need to have some discussions on possible things that would help. I'm not committing to that right now, though. I want to be optimistic that people will come with their data and talk to us about a licence.
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
When you meet with stakeholders who oppose this idea and suggest that the secret sauce will be given away...that's not how an ingredients label works. The ingredients of a Pepsi do not explain how to make a Pepsi, so an ingredients list is a totally valuable example, and I encourage you to push on that with stakeholders who oppose it.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
I'll ask one final question.
All of you represent parts of Canada's creative ecosystem. We talk a lot about protecting culture. How do we design an AI future where Canadian artists, educators and innovators shape culture, rather than just defend it from external forces? How do we future-proof, so to speak, what we're likely to see happen in the industry?
I'm open to thoughts on that from anyone.
Head, Cultural Policy Hub, OCAD University
I'm happy to jump in.
Invest in the creators of the work and invest in their ability to own, control and benefit from their own intellectual property. When we talk about copyright, we're talking about a form of intellectual property. In other industries, on things like patents, if a data-scraping exercise gave up the recipe and method for making a Pepsi, there would be hell to pay. If we can use that analogy in the cultural sector, we can understand the value a bit more.
The policy lens and the government lens about IP ownership and the ability to exploit that IP are also the model in the cultural sector. It just looks different. It also has a cultural value.
Director, Innovation, Alliances and Futurs, Sporobole, ArtIA
Arts and culture are made up of several disciplines. Today we've heard a lot about the music industry, but I'm sure the film people would have similar things to say.
However, we must not forget that most artistic and cultural works in Canada are created by independent artists or collectives working within companies, such as theatre or dance companies. We must not forget these people. We have to remember that many, many Canadian creators are not supported by an industry per se. A committee such as yours must listen to those artists and creators and ask them how we can protect them and support Canadian culture. It's probably through investment.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the last word. You have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I need a little clarification to fully understand what we're trying to protect.
In the research document submitted to us, we're told of the economic importance of copyright, among other things. We're told that in 2023, it involves nearly 700,000 jobs and about $63 billion, or 2.3% of the gross domestic product.
Is that whole economy at stake?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
To put it into music terms, Canada is the eighth-largest music market in the world. We are the third-largest exporter. We are only behind the U.S. and the U.K. The music industry in Canada, both its independent and its major space, is a success story. It is a success story worth celebrating and I think worth protecting.
AI and the collapse of copyright law in Canada pose a massive risk to that. That's what we're here to talk about today.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
What's the economic importance of that industry?
Chief Executive Officer, Music Canada
It's about $900 million annually in Canada.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
I'd now like to ask Mr. Ducharme a question.
Mr. Ducharme, I'm going to give you the last minute and a half of my speaking time so that you can tell us how you see cohabitation with artificial intelligence and how it may present opportunities.
On the positive side, what do you see?
Director, Innovation, Alliances and Futurs, Sporobole, ArtIA
I'd like to tell you about the Metacreation Lab at Simon Fraser University, a laboratory that examines issues related to emerging technologies in artistic production.
They've created a visual generation model that doesn't use copyrighted content. This content can therefore be used by artists to create a model using their own work. Artists can then use it.
It's a really interesting model. Other researchers and artists in the United States and elsewhere have created the same type of model.
The model will generate an image based on the works that were used to train the model and that belong to the artists. The artists will prepare their own corpus, and a training process will feed it into the machine. Rather than feeding a product, they'll feed this model. Then, they'll be able to create their own artworks, in their own visual style.
The problem is that you can't run this model on a regular computer. You need a relatively powerful computer. However, that infrastructure isn't currently available.
So artists need to find a way to access powerful computing infrastructure, but also find a way to fund that. So it will be through their own subsidies, since we operate with subsidy schemes. They'll apply for a grant from the Canada Council for the Arts. They may get it. If that's the case, they may be able to find that computing power to make the model work.
Right now, we don't have any spaces or infrastructure for artists to use the models that are produced in Canada. There's music, video and visual arts. If we don't create those spaces and invest in accessible Canadian infrastructure for artists, that's not going to happen. We're going to stifle innovation. These innovations will remain in university research centres.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you, Mr. Deschênes. Your time is up.
I want to really thank all of our excellent witnesses today for their testimony. It's really valuable while we put together our report.
If you don't mind waiting, members, I have a budget for our briefing on CBC/Radio-Canada. I have a budget for snacks that day.
Can I have someone move it? Mr. Ntumba moves it.
Is everyone agreed that we can pass this budget?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. Have a great week. We'll see you when we're back.
The meeting is adjourned.