Declaration of Emergency Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Good evening.

I'd like to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency, created pursuant to the order of the House on March 2, 2022, and of the Senate on March 3, 2022.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House and Senate orders. Should any technical difficulties arise, please advise me, as we may need to suspend for a few minutes to ensure that all members are able to fully participate.

Any witnesses should be aware that translation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.

We should note that today is a shorter meeting that will last for two hours, with a hard stop on our deliberations at 8:30. It's a business meeting, so, at this point in time, I'd like to open the floor.

I recognize Ms. Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Picking up on your introduction, I'd like to understand why today is a business meeting. The importance of hearing from witnesses was repeated again and again, and I don't believe it's a partisan issue. Everybody around this table agreed that we needed to get down to work.

The reality is that fully one-third of our meetings, six out of 15 meetings, were dedicated to committee business rather than getting down to the work that we were tasked with as a committee, and I find that very disappointing. I understand that a work plan was circulated today. I received it from the clerks. It is dated from May of the last session.

What is the current state of play for witnesses being scheduled? Would it be possible for the clerks to explain exactly why there were no witnesses available for what was scheduled as a three-hour witness meeting today?

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I'll take your first question, which was directed, I believe, to the joint chairs, who have the power to set the agenda for the meetings. As we discussed in previous meetings, there have been challenges in getting the prioritized witnesses concurrent with the judicial review. We simply weren't getting co-operation from those witnesses on the lists, and we were having a difficult time finding prioritized witnesses for this evening's meeting.

On the second part, I'm happy to share that with the clerks, if they'd like to—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Before we get to the questions for the clerks, is it your understanding, Mr. Chair, that witnesses are not interested in coming to our committee, or are they unavailable due to the inquiry? I'd like to get a better sense.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

With specificity, with regard to the witness we had lined up for today, somebody who is involved with the police service and obviously, to my understanding, with the incidents that occurred had required the attendance of many within the law enforcement community at a funeral. We did not want to impose on that or perhaps suggest that this committee would take precedence over that, honouring the tragedy that occurred.

We took the best course of action, which was to deal with ensuring that over the next six weeks, we have, in coordination with the judicial review, a schedule that is fulsome and one that is dedicated to witness lists that ensure that we can get to the business at hand.

Of course, at the conclusion of those six weeks, the ratio that you suggested, the one-third of meetings being set aside for committee business, would change dramatically. It would be in the course of our business, and we would be able to respond to many of the revelations and different dynamics that have been, I think, uncovered through the course of judicial review and the civil proceedings.

As you know, it's been very difficult to get co-operative witnesses at this committee to provide us with substantive answers, documents and many things this committee has been trying to get. As these other processes play out, it's our intention, through no fault of the clerks, to get the kind of scheduling that will have prioritized witnesses, which would make sense for the work plan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Okay. I certainly appreciate that the RCMP and police forces would be unavailable this week, but there are, respectfully, 10 pages of witnesses, so perhaps the clerks can let us know what the plan is going forward.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

That is the course of the business this evening, to set course on what the schedule is going to be on a prioritized basis for the next six weeks.

As it relates to the clerks, I'd like to note that Miriam, our usual clerk, is not here tonight. Mark is here, but the bulk of the planning work was between the two of them, so I don't necessarily want to put them on the spot. I'm happy to take responsibility as chair to let you know that we're having a business meeting tonight because that was the collective decision of the three chairs.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I understand, except that I think the clerk would have been in a position to answer my question with respect to the other witness list.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Fair enough.

Maybe, Mark, you can comment.

[The Joint Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Mark Palmer]

For this evening there were a number of witnesses called, police and others. When there were declamations when they didn't come, we then went to the joint chairs to ask for a meeting. There was a meeting between the joint chairs, and that's when it was decided to have a business meeting tonight to go forward on that.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

No other witnesses were called.

[The Joint Clerk, Mr. Mark Palmer]

There were a number of witnesses called. There was one confirmed for this evening, Mr. Bordeleau, but the decision was made that one witness wouldn't have stood alone. It was the decision of the joint chairs to cancel that witness and then to have a business meeting.

[The Acting Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Ms. Bendayan, are there any other questions?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Going forward I certainly hope that when the committee decides it will hear from a certain witness the following week, if there are extraneous circumstances we would automatically go to this very long witness list and see who could come in order to maximize our time here. It seems to me that we have limited ourselves to a very small number of witnesses for tonight and here we are finding that we have two hours of committee business. I will let the chair proceed with this meeting, and I will reserve comment.

[The Acting Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I appreciate your letting me proceed with the meeting. As the chair I will now do that.

We'll move on to Senator Harder.

Senator Harder, the floor is yours.

[Peter Harder, Senator, Ontario, PSG]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to express my support for the decisions of the joint chair with respect to the agenda tonight. To facilitate a candid conversation, I would move that for the purpose of discussing witnesses and the committee's work plan, we move in camera.

[The Acting Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

You've heard the motion put on the floor to move in camera. Is there any debate on the motion?

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Might I suggest that we debate the motions before we go in camera?

[The Acting Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

It's a non-debatable motion. I apologize.

[Peter Harder]

My motion only concerns discussions about the work plan, and not the motions themselves.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Okay. I understand.

I thought you wanted to move in camera right away.

[The Acting Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I'm sorry, I did miss that, as I was seeking—

[Peter Harder]

My motion references the discussion on the work plan and the witness list. It's not with respect to the motions Mr. Fortin has brought forward.

[The Acting Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

So that I'm clear and nobody thinks there are any shenanigans going on, are you moving to go in camera at this moment?

[Peter Harder]

No. That will be when we get to the point of the agenda where we deal with the witness list and the work plan.