Evidence of meeting #17 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was emergencies.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commr Thomas Carrique
There's no ongoing investigation at this time. There was no evidence ever identified that there were any leaks coming from within the Ontario Provincial Police. That was followed up by POIB, and there was no evidence to substantiate that.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you.
Mr. Green, your time is up. Can I turn the chair to you?
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
You most certainly may. I will reset the clock.
Senator, you have five minutes. The floor is yours.
Gwen Boniface
Thank you.
Welcome, again, to both of you.
Commissioner, I want to take you to the other end of the province, because there are a lot of questions. We tend to be in this Ottawa bubble here, but there were great concerns about what went on in Windsor. I appreciate the position you would be in, in terms of giving your support, where and how you do it and how you police your own communities at the same time. I think sometimes that's lost in terms of understanding that.
I'm quite interested in how the decision was made to go into Windsor. I am familiar with the Police Services Act and their call for assistance that came. Can you explain how that compares to Ottawa? I think there are a lot of questions that people have around that here in Ottawa.
Commr Thomas Carrique
Thank you, Senator.
In terms of the request for assistance, they were both very similar. There had been requests for assistance that came in from both police services formally, in writing. What was unique about both requests for assistance was that they went to the premier and the Solicitor General, as opposed to coming to me directly. The request for assistance would normally come from a police chief to the commissioner, and then we would provide the necessary assistance. That was somewhat unique in both sets of circumstances. They were public requests. Normally we would not see the specific number of officers requested publicly.
In terms of providing the assistance, we connected directly with the police services involved and assigned operational level commanders to take the lead on providing the necessary assistance.
In the case of Windsor, we were faced with a situation with the blockage of the Ambassador Bridge. We had a window where we felt we could move to enforcement, after all negotiation attempts had exhausted themselves, and execute a plan within two to four days. We had the available resources to meet the needs of the plan.
Ottawa's plan was still evolving and developing, and we knew, at that stage of the plan, that we did not have immediate access to the necessary resources. The initial assessment was that we would require a minimum of 800 public order members, which meant moving public order assets from across Canada to satisfy that plan. We were concerned that action taken in any jurisdiction would then disperse activity around the province.
On the day in question, when we moved to positive action in Windsor on February 12, we had 20 demonstrations going on simultaneously around the province. We were managing the Highway 402 blockade, the Ambassador Bridge, attempts to block the Peace Bridge, a blockage at Cornwall, attempts in Fort Frances and attempts on the provincial legislature in Toronto at Queen's Park.
My priority was to deal with all of those, whether we had the assets to, and then, once that was done, we would be able to amass the necessary resources to deal with Ottawa as the plan continued to develop. However, we continually sent assets to Ottawa during this period as well.
Gwen Boniface
That makes perfect sense, given my familiarity with the organization. What I don't understand is why the request would have gone to the premier or the Solicitor General. Did it come from the chief of police, or did it come from the mayor? We'll have them here, but I'm trying to understand the differences, because I have a lot of questions about that.
Commr Thomas Carrique
In the case of Ottawa, the request went from the mayor to the premier and the Solicitor General. In the case of Windsor, it came under the signature of the chief, after consulting with the mayor of Windsor. I then had direct conversation with both chiefs to make sure we were able to facilitate those requests for assistance. Although it was a nuance that I had never experienced before, it didn't create any obstacles for us operationalizing those requests.
Gwen Boniface
In the provincial emergency regulations that the government put in place in Ontario, did you have input into those, and of what assistance were they to you?
Commr Thomas Carrique
I did have input into those. Those meetings commenced on or about February 10. I was able to provide some operational perspective and some guidance in terms of tools that I thought would be effective to immediately end blockades, and deter and prevent further blockades.
I believe that our ability to clear the blockage on Highway 402 was a direct result of being able to reference the consequences for those participants not clearing that blockade immediately. I feel it was a very effective tool, through our provincial liaison teams, for preventing further blockades.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you.
I'll take the chair back.
Thank you, Commissioner.
I'll move to Senator Cordy.
Senator, Nova Scotia, PSG
Thank you very much.
Thank you, both, for being here today. It's very helpful.
Can you characterize your level of concern? This is a follow-up to Mr. Green's comments about the OPP.
I was surprised and disappointed when I saw pictures on TV of police officers, who were in charge of our safety, putting their arms on the shoulders of the protesters, having their picture taken with them and saying, “Have a good trip to Ottawa. I wish I could go with you.” I was devastated to see those kinds of things, because you'd think that our police officers would be upholding the peace. Instead, they were encouraging—I felt, watching it—lawlessness by the members of the convoy.
Did you have a reaction when you saw those kinds of things happening?
Commr Thomas Carrique
Yes. I had a reaction when I saw those types of things happening. I can tell you there has been formal discipline administered on 15 occasions by me to members of the Ontario Provincial Police.
It's also important to note that sometimes those images can be out of context. Sometimes, when a police officer is deployed to a potentially dangerous situation, trying to de-escalate it, trying to build rapport and trying to get agreement for people to willingly leave what would be an unlawful occupation, there is some rapport building that goes on. That is different from making statements of “We support what you're doing” and “We're behind you.” Simply being caught in a photograph standing with somebody who's at the occupation may not be misconduct.
We can't lose sight of the fact that there were people who were peacefully and lawfully protesting at various stages intermixed with people who were engaged in unlawful activity.
Senator, Nova Scotia, PSG
You're absolutely right. There were protesters—we've all seen peaceful protesters—and there was lawlessness going on. Thank you for that.
Yesterday, we also heard about tactical information being given to protesters. It was being leaked. What I heard—and it isn't what you said earlier—was that this leaking was being done by all three levels of policing.
Have you done investigations into that within the OPP?
Commr Thomas Carrique
I'm sorry, Senator. I'm not familiar with where that information came from yesterday.
Commr Thomas Carrique
It may have been. I'm not in receipt of any evidence of leakages coming out of all three levels of law enforcement. If that means municipal, provincial and federal, there have certainly been assertions and rumours of such. Through intelligence, we have sought to clarify any rumours and seek out any evidence, and there has been no evidence of any OPP officers being involved in any such conduct.
Senator, Nova Scotia, PSG
You have been doing some internal investigations on that.
Commr Thomas Carrique
We have sought to get additional information or evidence.
We do not officially have an investigation under way. There is no evidence for us. There is no official complaint. There is no actual evidence. There is no starting point for such an investigation.
Senator, Nova Scotia, PSG
Are you concerned about the possibility of public mistrust in policing? When people see those kinds of things on TV, whether they're misconstrued or whether they've actually happened, are you nervous about public mistrust of policing levels?
Commr Thomas Carrique
I'm always concerned about the level of trust and confidence in our police from our public. It is absolutely essential to be effective and to ensure that citizens and communities feel safe and secure. They have to have confidence in our police.
However, in the absence of any evidence, a lot of this can continue to be rhetoric from those who were engaged in protest activity and those who continue to push out misinformation and disinformation to try to further a narrative. If there is ever any evidence or a complaint that can be followed up on through the course of investigation, you have my commitment that it will be done.
Senator, Nova Scotia, PSG
It also puts police officers in more danger, I believe, if there's mistrust in the police, so it is important that it's dealt with.
Commr Thomas Carrique
Trust and confidence are absolutely essential to policing in a free and democratic society.
Senator, Nova Scotia, PSG
Thanks.
Did the efforts to deal with the convoy improve after the former chief resigned in Ottawa?
Commr Thomas Carrique
Certainly, a unified command was very clearly established on February 15.
Chief Sloly resigned. I was not aware that he was going to be resigning on February 15. He was engaged in a police services board meeting. We had a number of questions that I was to take to Chief Sloly to determine obstacles that were perceived to be in the way of operationalizing the plan within the Ottawa police.
I never had the opportunity to have that conversation with Chief Sloly. Interim Chief Bell was appointed and the plan moved forward immediately at that point.