Declaration of Emergency Committee on Nov. 17th, 2022

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mason, this is directed toward you.

Recently released minutes of a February 21 secret cabinet meeting indicated that Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance Freeland reported on a conversation she had with CEOs of the major banks:

Banks were pleased that the government was working on a plan that would see individuals with their bank accounts frozen report to police prior to the bank to have their accounts unfrozen.

At any time, did the minister or a staff member of Finance Canada ask your banks how many accounts had been frozen, push for banks to act faster, or question why more accounts have not been frozen?

[Angelina Mason]

We definitely got questions. We know the minister reached out individually to some of our banks, and we had questions from the Finance officials themselves about the number of accounts frozen, because they wanted to understand that the order was being implemented and felt it was important to say what the impact was.

I think they were also interested in the basis for the numbers we were producing. We explained that the numbers we had were, in large part, due to the fact that we needed to rely heavily on the list provided by the RCMP.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

This question is for both of you.

Were there any restrictions placed on how the private information received from the RCMP about Canadians could be used, or on how long it could be relied upon?

[Angelina Mason]

There were no instructions when the information was provided. We asked the question at the beginning, given how sanction laws work when that list is public, whether this was a confidential or private list. We were told it was a confidential list and that's why we only shared it on a need-to-know basis. There were no specific instructions.

Having said that, privacy law kicks into effect, which requires that you only hold information as necessary and for the purpose for which it was collected.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Do you see any difference in that, Mr. Hatch?

[Michael Hatch]

That's no difference from our experience. That is correct.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Basically, the government sent out hundreds of pages of unencrypted information to your members via email, on your own testimony, Ms. Mason, including client protest activities, with few or no privacy safeguards from their perspective, or in their direction to you.

Is that correct?

[Angelina Mason]

That is correct. They were delivered through that process.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

They provided no safeguards or direction to you on how to safeguard that data. Is that correct?

[Angelina Mason]

They did not provide any such instructions.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Did the banking association safeguard this personal data?

[Angelina Mason]

Yes, we ensured it was only shared on a need-to-know basis. We arranged it so that our members could receive that information directly.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay.

Is yours about the same, Mr. Hatch?

[Michael Hatch]

Yes, we shared it only on a very secure, members-only online channel.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Have your members destroyed that information yet?

[Michael Hatch]

I don't know the answer to that question, but I'm happy to get back to you.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Ms. Mason, is it yes or no?

[Angelina Mason]

I would have to get back to you on it.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Can you both undertake to do that and report back to the committee on whether that has been destroyed by your members?

Is there anything in the emergency order that prevents your banking members, Ms. Mason, from continuing to use the intelligence received from the RCMP in their own personal risk assessments of clients, as banks? Are these accounts still identified by the banks as having been on the government's blacklist, outside of those with court orders, which you have already identified?

[Angelina Mason]

There is nothing in the order that sounds like it prevents that. There would be some indication on the account itself, so the bank could answer any questions as to why certain actions were taken on that account.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Again, this is not an indictment of banking or financial institutions, but of the fact that the order itself is void of any direction, that when the order is lifted, you can't use that data for any of your own purposes. That's my point. You answered that there was no direction provided.

I have one last comment.

One could argue that consumer confidence is the foundation of a worldwide financial system. If people lose confidence that banks and other financial institutions are capable of keeping their money safe, we get runs on banks, even though, at this point in time, you said it was minimal. The money supply we rely on every day could be threatened at institutions and break down. The government's use of the Emergencies Act to freeze the bank accounts of individuals was unprecedented.

Would you agree that those unprecedented measures have had a negative impact on the confidence Canadians have in the banking system, Mr. Hatch?

[Michael Hatch]

At the time, yes, but the—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Ms. Mason.

[Angelina Mason]

I would say that we weathered this storm, but that was in large part due to the fact that it was very short-lived.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, the witness was attempting to finish his answer and he was cut off.