Go ahead, Mr. Green.
Evidence of meeting #18 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #18 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:05 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Mason, given the nature of the question, I think maybe something was a little bit lost in interpretation.
I just want you to give your definition of what a conservatorship seizure is versus what happened legalistically under the Emergencies Act.
9:05 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
My understanding from how it's being described is that everything is frozen, so it's preserved and can't be accessed in any way. In that sense, because there were no exceptions to access to funds in the account, then effectively, yes, those monies were preserved and there was no access in any way.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I just wanted you to have the opportunity to expand on that. It seemed to be a point of contention for my colleague.
Mr. Hatch, I heard in the testimony you describe something that I hadn't contemplated, which was the freezing of a debt instrument—a mortgage. Is that correct?
9:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
Yes. Again, I don't have the data in front me, but my recollection of the results of one of the surveys that we had conducted amongst our membership was that one of the accounts frozen was in fact a mortgage account.
I don't have any further details on that.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Ms. Mason, did you also have debt instrument accounts frozen in the process?
9:10 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
Yes and I'll clarify on that point.
One question we had asked was what types of accounts. You could have a line of credit, for example, that would be accessible. You had to freeze it, so that someone couldn't access the funds that were available.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Just so that I'm clear—because that's new information for me—what would be some of the unintended consequences? Does that mean the person would potentially default on their home by not being able to provide payments to a debt instrument?
9:10 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
It's more the case that you wouldn't be able to draw on it.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
That's on a line of credit. But if it's a mortgage one, which we heard from Mr. Hatch.... Through you, was the mortgage a personal line of credit mortgage, or was it a traditional mortgage?
9:10 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
It was a HELOC, so it's the ability to access funds.
9:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
That's right. That's my understanding of our experience as well. It is a HELOC, a home equity line of credit, so the person no longer has access—
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Okay. I'm familiar with that. They couldn't access the large amounts of equity within their homes.
9:10 p.m.
Angeline Mason
Yes.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Okay. That makes sense.
I'm curious to know about the unintended consequences.
On a number of occasions, Ms. Mason, you mentioned that information had come after the fact. In fact, the Emergencies Act had been declared, and you were provided with a list and a set of instructions and you had to go back to the government a number of times for clarification.
Is it your opinion that the instructions that were provided to your association and your sector were inadequate to adequately define and execute what was asked of you?
9:10 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
The reason we had to go back was we didn't have the full set of orders. We had descriptions. Minister Chrystia Freeland had described what was coming, but we didn't actually see it.
We started generating questions then, and once we saw the actual order, then we did get definitive responses. But, in fairness, we did go and ask again further on whether they were sure we couldn't get some sort of humanitarian relief.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
9:10 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
No, it wasn't dealt with in the order at all, and that's where I would distinguish it from the example of sanctions regulations
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
That's correct.
Look, I think the purpose of this committee, at least for me, is to ensure that we don't have to get to a place like this again. Should the government ever go down a road like this, or similar to this, would it be your recommendation here today that the government provide, in its fullest abilities and in the earliest time possible, a full list of how, what, where, when, and who these orders would be executed against?
9:10 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
That's correct.
9:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
We'd be more comfortable with a list.
Perhaps I may add, Mr. Chair, to when I was interrupted earlier, when I was asked if these actions caused a decline in trust in the system, I answered “yes, but”, and was cut off.
9:10 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
Yes, in those very early days, of course there was panic. People didn't know what the orders meant. They didn't know if their account was going to be frozen or not. But that didn't last very long.
Eventually, and after not very many days, in fact, a week or two, the very targeted and narrow nature of these orders became clear, to such a degree that today I would surmise that the impact on trust in the system is negligible or non-existent. We have a very sound financial system in Canada, and consumers can continue to have confidence in it.
9:10 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I appreciate that. It certainly beats cryptocurrency, I would say.
We will now go to the next speaker, who would be Senator Boniface.
Senator Boniface, the floor is yours.