Declaration of Emergency Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Peter Harder]

Yes, certainly, Chair.

The rationale for in camera is to ensure that as we develop the report, we can have a frank and interior conversation around how we see the report evolving, and try to seek, if we can, a consensus around recommendations in particular. That might not be unanimous. There might be other views that will be incorporated that don't seek unanimous consent of the committee, but I think that work is best done—at least in the experience that I've had—in an in camera fashion.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I would say, from my experience with our work in the House, that the report stage stuff does typically happen in camera. To confirm, is that also the practice in the Senate?

[Peter Harder]

That's correct.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Okay, I'm satisfied with that.

We do have an amendment on the floor.

I recognize Monsieur Fortin.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Does Senator Harder agree to splitting his motion and to us voting on paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) separately?

[Peter Harder]

I'm in the hands of the chair.

My own view is that it's a whole, but it's up to the committee.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I've not seen that done before. I think it's important to vote on it in its entirety, because it reads as a comprehensive whole. Then you'd—

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Just to be clear, Mr. Fortin has not relinquished the floor yet. He put a question.

I just want to make sure, before we jump in on interventions, that you have completed your intervention, Mr. Fortin.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I asked Senator Harder the question, since it is his motion. Personally, I think they are different subjects.

The motion suggests that the committee invite no further witnesses, and I agree that a date be added. Mr. Motz proposed that it be reassessed after the Rouleau report is submitted, and I agree with that.

Second, the motion then instructs the analysts to prepare a draft report, but that is another subject.

Third, the motion suggests that we must present our report before March 31. The idea of setting ourselves a deadline may be good or bad, but it is definitely a different thing.

I really think these are four different subjects. If I had to vote on the motion now, I would be unhappy about voting against it, because I agree with some of the proposals. If we keep all these items together, we may not be able to agree, when we could certainly agree on at least two or three of them.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I just want to clarify procedurally that this motion has been tabled. It is in order as it stands. What you're asking him to do, essentially, would be to withdraw the motion and re-put it point by point, and I get a sense that's not the intention. From that perspective, while the intervention is appreciated, it doesn't have a procedural precedent.

Are there any other people who would like to speak to the amendment?

Given that we don't have a speakers list, I would now like to put the question on Mr. Motz's amendment.

Perhaps we could have the clerk read it out before we go to the vote.

[The Joint Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Miriam Burke]

Mr. Motz moved that Senator Harder's motion be amended in point (a) by adding the words “until the Public Order Emergency Commission's report has been published” and, second, by deleting points (c) and (d).

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

You've heard the amendment as put. We will now proceed to the vote.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I didn't understand very well.

Do you want points (c) and (d) to be deleted?

If I understand correctly, we would be voting on points (a) and (b), and points (c) and (d) would be deleted.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Is everything good? Okay. We will proceed.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

The amendment is defeated.

We will now go the main motion.

Mr. Brock, go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a second amendment to propose.

It's titled, “No witnesses until Justice Rouleau publishes a final report by June 2023”.

I move that the motion be amended (a) in paragraph (a) by adding “until the Public Order Emergency Commission's report has been published”; (b) in paragraph (c) by adding “final” before the word “report”; and (c) in paragraph (d) by replacing “March 31” with “June 23”.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I would suggest that your first amendment is redundant. I think that was just defeated. It's a repeat of Mr. Motz's amendment, respectfully. You can't relitigate an amendment that you've just lost.

I don't think that amendment is in order if you're repeating what we just did. If you would like to just add your second two, then I'm willing to entertain that being tabled, but we're not going to repeat amendments.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'll withdraw the reference to (a) in paragraph (a), and seek amendments in (b) to paragraph (c) and (c) to paragraph (d).

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

For the purpose of the committee, could you please repeat that so the clerks and everybody can understand it again?

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It's (b) in paragraph (c) by adding “final” before “report”, and (c) in paragraph (d) by replacing “March 31” with “June 23”.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Mr. Brock, would you like to speak to the amendment now? You do have the floor still.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

My position is as stated.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

With that being said, is there anybody else on the speakers list?

Mr. Motz, you have the floor.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I would just like to add that I think we have general agreement around the table that we need to look at getting the report from the Rouleau commission. We need to see how that plays into our report from the analysts. We need to get the analysts working, as Mr. Harder has indicated, on a report for us as a committee. We can then start deliberating and making recommendations.

Given the number of weeks that we sit after the Rouleau commission is to be out, it would be impossible for us in all reasonableness to have a March 31 deadline. Even if we don't call anybody anymore, it would be virtually impossible for us to get through the evidence to be able to look at his report and then turn around and make recommendations based on that by March 31.

Obviously, June 23 is the last day before we rise for summer, I believe. If we're sooner, then we're sooner, but that should be it. We have to be done by then. If we're done sooner, so be it. I think that's reasonable.

It allows us to have a fulsome report. We've heard some great recommendations on everything from policing to the interpretation of the law, etc. I think it would serve us well in what our role is to give us some latitude on time.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Are there any other comments on the amendment as proposed?

Senator Boniface, you have the floor.