Evidence of meeting #9 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was laws.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna
François Daigle  Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Peter Harder  Senator, Ontario, PSG
Joint Chair  Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)
Claude Carignan  Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
Larry W. Campbell  Senator, British Columbia, CSG
Jenifer Aitken  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Central Agencies Portfolio, Department of Justice
Rob Stewart  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

6:35 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Good evening to the committee members and our guests here today.

I'd like to call this meeting to order and welcome everyone to meeting number nine of the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency, created pursuant to the order of the House on March 2, 2022, and of the Senate on March 3, 2022.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the order of the House dated November 25, 2021.

I'd like to remind all those present in the room to please follow the recommendations of the public health authorities, as well as the directives of the Board of Internal Economy, to maintain health and safety.

Should any technical or any other challenges arise, please advise me, as we may need to suspend for a few minutes to ensure that all members are able to fully participate.

Witnesses should also be aware that translation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of your screens and, of course, on the microphones in front of you.

We have with us today, from 6:30 to 8 p.m., representatives from the Department of Justice. We have François Daigle, who is the deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general of Canada. We have Samantha Maislin Dickson, who is the assistant deputy minister of the public safety, defence and immigration portfolio. We have Jenifer Aitken, who is the acting assistant deputy minister of the central agencies portfolio; and Heather Watts, who is the deputy director general and general counsel for the human rights law section. Welcome.

You will all have five minutes for your opening remarks. We will begin....

Go ahead, Mr. Clerk.

6:35 p.m.

The Joint Clerk of the Committee Mr. Paul Cardegna

There's only one opening statement.

6:35 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

There's only one opening statement. I'm sure you all have done rock paper scissors and will determine who is doing that.

We will allow you to begin, Mr. Daigle. Thank you.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

6:35 p.m.

François Daigle Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, everyone.

Honourable joint chairs and committee members, thank you for the invitation to speak.

I want to cover three points in my opening remarks. First is the test to invoke the Emergencies Act. Second, I want to speak to the temporary measures. Third, I'll speak to compliance with the charter.

On the first element of the test, I invite you to read sections 3, 16 and 17 of the Emergencies Act. Section 3 states that a national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that seriously endangers the health and safety of Canadians and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.

I want to make two points about that.

First, on February 14, the Governor in Council decided that our country was indeed in such a crisis situation. The reasons for issuing the declaration of a public order emergency were set out in great detail in the public document required by section 58 of the act. It's that document that summarizes the facts that the GIC relied on at the time to come to the conclusions that there were reasonable grounds to invoke the Emergencies Act. I believe that this document is before the committee.

Second, the GIC determined that the situation had exceeded the capacity and authority of the provinces and territories to respond “effectively”, or “adéquatement” as it says in the French version.

The test is not whether other laws existed, like other provincial highway traffic acts. The test is whether they were effective at dealing with the emergency. Nor is the test whether they could have been effective. The test is whether they were effective. The government determined that they were not and enacted time-limited measures for law enforcement and financial service providers to use, at their discretion, to deal with the emergency.

The Emergency Measures Regulations that were made prohibited certain targeted conduct and gave peace officers the power to preserve and maintain the public peace.

Each of the prohibitions listed in sections 2 to 5 of the Regulations addressed behaviours observed during the unlawful blockades and the occupation of Ottawa streets. The key prohibition is set out in subsection 2(1), which supplements the powers to maintain the peace that police have at common law by prohibiting certain public assemblies. It does not affect all public assemblies, only a very precise, targeted type: a public assembly that may reasonably be expected to lead to a breach of the peace by the serious disruption of the movement of persons or goods or the serious interference with trade, the interference with the functioning of critical infrastructure, or the support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property.

The measures also provided that a person must not bring children to unlawful assemblies—conduct that we all observed in Ottawa and Windsor. The measures also provided that a foreign national must not enter Canada with the intent to participate in an assembly referred to in that section, and prohibit providing property or funds to support unlawful assemblies.

The related Emergency Economic Measures Order, which provides for certain bank accounts to be frozen, was also very targeted and limited. The obligations to which financial institutions were subject no longer applied, that is, ceased to apply, if the “designated person”, a term defined in the order, ceased to engage in unlawful activities. It was therefore easy for a person to exempt themself from the freeze simply by leaving the unlawful assemblies.

The objectives of the measures were clear: to deter the attendance at unlawful assemblies, to bring an end to the unlawful blockades and get people to leave, and to prevent the formation of new unlawful blockades and protests.

Finally, on the charter, as the Minister of Justice said at his appearance on April 26, the measures were consistent with the charter, and the declaration did not suspend the charter. That is clear from the act. The charter continued to protect rights and freedoms as the government took the necessary lawful and proportionate measures to address the blockades.

I want to explain what we do at the Department of Justice when we review new laws, like these temporary measures, for charter compliance. We are not the police deciding whether or how to use existing or new authorities, nor are we prosecutors deciding whether to pursue a prosecution. We review the law on its face, in this case the temporary orders, to understand their objectives and examine whether the measures are inconsistent with the charter.

The examination can include consideration of whether any interference with a charter right is justified in a free and democratic society as allowed by section 1 of the charter. We look at their scope and their relationship to the objectives of the measures. We rely on decisions from the courts, including the Supreme Court of Canada.

While we can't share our legal opinions that we may have prepared for the executive branch, we can explain the position of the government. The minister has already explained that his position was that the measures were targeted, proportional, time limited and charter compliant.

The minister has tabled today a charter backgrounder that sets out the charter considerations that go through sections 2(b), 2(c), 6, 7 and 8. I hope that will help your understanding and deliberations.

In conclusion, we found that, overall, the Regulations and the Order prevented the organizing of unlawful protests and enabled the police to get control of the situation. The occupiers left in order to avoid having their accounts frozen. People stopped bringing their children to unlawful protests, and this enabled the police to enforce the law in Ottawa. The measures also deterred other people from joining the blockades. Those were the actual objectives of the new measures adopted under the Emergencies Act.

That concludes my introduction. We are eager to answer your questions.

6:40 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Thank you very much. I'll note that we went a bit beyond the five-minute scope, but it's important that those opening remarks were heard. In your remarks, you had mentioned a document that had been prepared. Has that been submitted for distribution at this committee?

6:40 p.m.

A voice

It was distributed earlier today.

6:40 p.m.

NDP

The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Before we get into the rounds, I would like you to note that in this committee we're going to be probably moving at a fairly rapid pace, given our time constraints. The member who has the floor controls their time. If you hear members say, “Thank you”, or if they gently interrupt you and interject to move on to the next question, I just want you to know that it's not personal. They would like to move on to the next question to be able to protect their time. I would ask that members do so in a way that is tactful and allows the discussion to flow.

If it is the case that a round comes to a close, but there is information that's being presented, I'll let you know and you can finish your thought. We certainly don't want to be cutting anybody off mid-sentence.

We will begin the first round with Mr. Motz, who will have five minutes.

Mr. Motz, the floor is yours.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Before you start the clock, I will just say publicly thank you for being here as department officials in person. This is one of the first times this has occurred, other than when we have had the ministers, and it says a lot about your willingness to be heard and to be open to what it is that we're doing. Thank you very much for doing that.

Deputy Minister Daigle, I just want to make a comment about your opening remarks. You indicated that the invocation was necessary because the existing laws basically were inadequate. This is not a question but a comment. I suggest that the existing laws were inadquately applied more than anything else.

Let me get into the questions. The Emergencies Act is clear, as you mentioned, sir, that a national emergency is “an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature” that “cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada. Given the number of laws we have in this country that could have addressed these protests, the federal government must have reached a very high threshold before invoking the emergency powers.

Can you state categorically, yes or no, that the government exercised every legislative option before invoking the Emergencies Act?

6:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

I can't provide a yes-or-no answer to your question, because the test is not whether we exercised every piece of legislation in the country. The test is whether those laws were being used effectively to deal with the emergency, and our view is that they were not.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Is that a law issue, or is that an “application of the law” issue?

6:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

That's an “application of the law” issue. The laws were being applied—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

That's different.

6:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

—in different places, but they were not dealing effectively with the emergency.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I haven't had a chance to go through the document you provided in great detail. Were you or your department asked to produce, obviously, a constitutional review of the legality of invoking the Emergencies Act?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

We provide legal advice to the executive branch of government on all matters, and it's safe to assume that we have in this case. After the minister's appearance on April 26, I asked Heather and her office to prepare this document, because I thought it could be helpful to the committee.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Has the minister ever gone against any of the advice he's received from his ministry?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

I'm not going to tell you what the government does with the advice it gets from the Department of Justice. I think they're always happy to get our advice, but ultimately they make decisions with the benefit of that advice.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Can you make the review you've done available to the committee?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

We've made this charter backgrounder available to the committee, and we're happy to speak to that document if there are some questions about it.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Given your comments in the opening, has your department recommended any new laws to the minister since the invocation of the Emergencies Act that would better suit and address similar situations in the future?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

Whether we've provided legal advice to the government, I think, is not something I can share.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

In your opening statement, you said that the existing laws weren't adequate. My question is this: Have you suggested to the minister that there are some new laws that we could have?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

I didn't say that the laws were not adequate. I said that the laws were not applied effectively to deal with the emergency.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I'm taking it by your kind of non-answer that you really haven't talked to the minister about any new laws that could be implemented in this country. By that, can I then infer that maybe you think the existing laws are actually adequate but they just weren't adequately applied? Would that be a fair statement?

6:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice

François Daigle

Our view is that the laws that were on the books were not effective at dealing with the emergency and that we needed new laws—these measures that we implemented, that we enacted—in order to help the police and financial service providers to deal with the emergency.

The government is obviously looking at a “lessons learned” exercise. There is an inquiry going on, and I'm sure the government will take advice from that inquiry and determine whether they want to amend the Emergencies Act or if there are some other statutes they think they should deal with in order to deal with future emergencies.