Economic Relationship between Canada and the United States Committee on March 30th, 2021

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good.

Mr. Pilat, you're a voice for the many trade unions that are working in the construction industry, and I know that you have brother and sister organizations in all of those trade organizations. Can you tell this committee what their effort has been in support of keeping Line 5 open?

[Andrew Pilat]

I think it's obvious that everybody realizes the importance of Line 5 to the economy, not just locally but provincially and nationally. All the organizations we liaise with—and I'm talking about the Council of Ontario Construction Associations, the Canadian construction association, the Ontario building trades and the Canadian building trades, which Scott is a part of—are in support of the Enbridge proposal to keep Line 5 open, and they're in support of the proposal that would run a tunnel underneath the lake-bed of Lake Michigan.

I think Scott mentioned this. Just think of what would happen if we cut back to 50% of our capacity. What would happen to all the cars that are running on the highways? What would happen to all of this? If people think it's safer to run oil by truck or rail or by boat, I have news for them. My view is that running oil through a pipeline is the safest way to transport it.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Absolutely.

Mayor Bradley, if, as some have suggested, the alternative is to use trucks, railcars and barges to transport the material that's coming down Line 5, can you describe the impact both on humans and on infrastructure that this would have on the community of Sarnia-Lambton?

[Mike Bradley]

First of all, keep in mind that we're the largest port on Lake Huron. We're at the centre of the Great Lakes. We're a shipping centre. Keep in mind we have the second largest rail yard in Ontario besides Toronto. We're very familiar with both, and they are both pretty helpful to our economy, but if we have a choice, as the other speakers have indicated, between rail or shipping and the pipeline, the pipeline wins every time.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a letter to all the mayors in Ontario in communities over 50,000. I wasn't looking for an endorsement. I just wanted to warn them that higher fuel prices are on their way and more cars, more railcars and more trucks—and less safety—are going to happen if this line closes. When you hear the overall argument from Governor Whitmer about saving the environment, you add up those factors and ask how that is helping the environment with more railcars, more barges and more ships. It just doesn't add up.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Do we know how much an Enbridge Line 5 shutdown would cost the city of Sarnia?

[Mike Bradley]

I can't answer that question. Enbridge is in the region. To be quite honest, it's the jobs that matter. Pipelines by their very nature don't pay a lot in taxes. It's the jobs, the added-value jobs. You know very well that we have the refineries here and we have a very robust industry, but then we have this massive secondary ring of suppliers who support that industry, including those 5,000 or 6,000 skilled tradespeople.

That's where the real ripple impact is on the economy, not just in Sarnia-Lambton but right across this region and right across the province.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

We'll now go to Mr. McKay for six minutes, please.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to each of the witnesses.

I'd like to enter into a conversation with you, Mayor Bradley. You are a hugely successful mayor. I think it's 10 elections in a row. You've been an incumbent since 1988. As we have listened over the last few weeks to the people who have come before us, the arguments are compelling. I think I adopt Ms. Alleslev's view that we are in radical agreement. It does seem to come down to a political decision.

As a practising politician talking to other practising politicians who apparently has “written more letters to the governor than St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians” —I hope your fate is not the same fate as Saint Paul's—have you received any indication from the governor as to what her rationale might be for the internationally disruptive position she is taking?

[Mike Bradley]

Thank you. That's a very thoughtful question.

On the first part, about being one of the longest-serving mayors, I have run in every election on a simple platform: Please re-elect me until I get it right.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I think I'll adopt that one. I like that.

[Mike Bradley]

Well, it's guaranteed. None of us ever get it right. There's someone else, somewhere else, doing it a lot better, whether you're an MP, a mayor or an MPP.

I can't fathom what is going on in the governor's mansion in Lansing. None of my letters have been responded to. I understand—I'm a mayor from a border city—but the Premier of Ontario calls and they won't speak. I believe the federal government has issues in trying to connect directly. That's what's so puzzling. All of us deal with people that maybe we sometimes don't want to deal with. We all deal with people that we disagree with. But we listen. As far as I know, the governor has not had....

There was apparently one side conversation about the Gordie Howe bridge with the transport minister. It was apparently very brief. Other than that, no one has been able to get to speak to the governor. You really wonder, then, about the logic of the argument if you're not willing to confront the people who do have a different point of view. I understand, too, that the consul general in Detroit has had the same sort of shutdown of access.

Going back to what I said during my remarks, does the governor not understand the damage to the ongoing relationship, whether it be the agriculture community or whether it be tourism? There's a border city relationship. I've been meeting with the Ontario border city mayors for the last year, obviously. We've been working with the federal government and talking to them about a long-term sectional reopening plan. How does that factor in when you have a governor in a state that has had horrendous increases in COVID in the last little while who won't even talk to you on another issue? That's what bothers me.

I can tell you that I've always thought highly of the governor. When she ran, I was very impressed with her skills and her ability to communicate to people. I don't think what is happening with this “I'm just not going to talk to anyone” is serving the people of Michigan very well.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I agree with you. I've heard her interviewed, and I've admired her skill and her abilities. She certainly had some confrontation with the people who wanted to take over the legislature. I thought she handled that as well as could be handled. At one point, she was being considered for the ticket with Biden. She is immensely skilled and apparently quite intelligent, but is unable or unwilling—I guess unwilling—to talk to you or talk to the premier. The federal government is having difficulties talking to her directly. The whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense.

I want to take a sidebar here. Enbridge's reputation in Michigan maybe leaves a little bit to be desired. I think that's an understatement of understatements. What is your view, as a practising politician, as to how that plays through in this dispute?

[Mike Bradley]

I think there's a direct linkage.

I always make it very clear that I'm not representing Enbridge; I'm representing Sarnia and the workers here, and the people who benefit from Enbridge being here. They're big enough to take care of themselves.

But there's no question that gets thrown into the mix. I ask people to judge Line 5. I ask people to judge the half a billion dollars that's going to be spent on it. I ask them to judge the upgrades that have been made here when they didn't have to.... That's the way I'm trying to approach it.

However, I will say, the tactics have changed. In the beginning, my letters were going to Governor Whitmer...and I've had good relationships with other governors. Jim Blanchard, who was the former American ambassador to Canada, was great to deal with, and often came by the city and just said hello. We had a good relationship.

This is different, so that's why the tactics changed. Enbridge was part of that, and so were many other groups, like the agriculture groups and a number of the people that Ms. Gladu has been working with. We decided we needed to talk to Ottawa. We were not getting anywhere...any traction at all with the Governor of Michigan that appealed to friendship and trade.

By the way, in 2018, Ontario and Michigan signed an agreement to expand trade, to work closer together—all forgotten with the change in the government.

We turned to Ottawa, and I think Ottawa has been supportive, particularly in the last few weeks after the minister appeared at this committee. I think now we really are more depending on Ottawa to [Technical difficulty—Editor] in Lansing.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you have six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses and thank them for their briefs.

The following question is for Mr. Pilat, a construction specialist.

Groups that oppose the project often cite environmental concerns and fear that the pipeline could fail, which would result in a hard-to-fix and extremely tragic oil spill in the strait. Objectively, in light of your construction expertise, how do you assess the likelihood that Line 5 could cause a spill of crude oil and natural gas liquids into the Straits of Mackinac between now and the completion of the Great Lakes tunnel project and once that project is completed?

That's two questions in one. Thank you.

[Scott Archer]

Would I be able to jump in for Andy for a minute on this one? I know it wasn't directed to me.

That line has been in service for almost three-quarters of a century and it hasn't leaked a drop into the Straits of Mackinac. Now, the flip side of this is that Enbridge would have had the tunnel completed within a year from now if the governor had not intervened.

I don't know where the governor's head is at in this, but the risk would have been greatly mitigated if she had not interfered with the tunnel project in the first place. Secondly, I don't see a risk with the quality control and inspection and maintenance programs that Enbridge has in place. I think we're very safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

Mr. Pilat, you can speak if you'd like.

[Andrew Pilat]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question. I don't know how to turn the computer on to translate for me. I'd have to hear the question again. I apologize.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Yes, I'll repeat the question.

Mr. Chair, I would ask you not to include this repetition in my time, please.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

That's fine. No problem.

Mr. Pilat, are you able to hear the translation?

[Andrew Pilat]

Now I am.

[The Chair, Liberal, Raj Saini]

You are? Okay.

Start again, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you.

Groups that oppose the project often cite environmental concerns and fear that the pipeline could fail, which would result in a hard-to-fix and extremely tragic oil spill in the strait. Objectively, in light of your construction expertise, how do you assess the likelihood that Line 5 could cause a spill of crude oil and natural gas liquids into the Straits of Mackinac between now and the completion of the Great Lakes tunnel project and once that project is completed?

[Andrew Pilat]

It's difficult to speculate.

The two lines were built in the fifties and since that time there haven't been any spills in the Straits of Mackinac. Pipelines have a lot of backup systems, and I would imagine they would engineer it so there would be absolutely no spills in the tunnel. I think the tunnel is an absolute guarantee of no spills into the lake.

My understanding, and from the pictures I've seen, is that the current lines are in good shape so I don't expect any spills until the tunnel is built. The tunnel's going to be 80 feet or 100 feet below lake-bed, and it's going to be somewhere in the range of 15 feet or so. It's going to be well protected.

Again, there are backup systems. Considering all the attention Line 5 is getting, I'm sure it is going to have the best of everything to ensure it will be environmentally safe.

I hope that answers your question, sir.