Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2016

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us.

Ms. Roberge, we are meeting with a lot of experts, university professors, citizens and organizations that have access to considerable documentation. However, the data often contradict each other. In this context, I'd like to know if you have documents that confirm your figures and assertions.

Just yesterday, a university expert, who came to speak to us about voting systems, asserted with certainty that in the countries that had proportional voting systems, those systems had no impact on the participation of women, or on the number of women elected. He said that it was not that, but the measures deployed to change the political culture, which brought about change.

I remember that, last week in Ottawa, a woman affiliated with a university— in Vancouver, I believe—appeared by videoconference. Each time we spoke about voting systems, she repeated that if we show the will, and impose strict rules, the desired results, including 50% women candidates, will necessarily be achieved.

We are trying to achieve many things. We want to change the voting system. If the objective is truly to obtain 50-50 representation, and the majority of the public is not preoccupied about voting systems—indeed, it has been said that the discussion interests only 3% of people—then in order to truly change things, perhaps we must resort to more modest means.

We are talking about women and minorities. Yesterday, a witness said something that really struck me. It was the first time I became aware of those issues. Based on what he said, we want women to have the same representation as their share of the population, which is 50.4%. There are now more women than men.

He asked whether all religious groups, minorities, immigrants, homosexuals, transgender people, youth, seniors and indigenous people—perhaps a variety of groups in the case of indigenous people—would be represented, and where the line would be drawn so that people can make decisions and take their place.

My question is somewhat broad. I'd like to hear your comments on the subject.

[Mercédez Roberge]

There are several aspects. I don't know the source of the information the specialist you met with yesterday shared with you.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

He wasn't the only one. A few of them told us it had no impact.

[Mercédez Roberge]

Okay.

The people from the Inter-Parliamentary Union, from AceProject and from Quota Project say the same thing as me. They are international institutions that monitor the scores obtained by the various parties. There is a great deal of surveillance worldwide on the subject. The evidence is copious.

The data I have, which are from reliable sources, pertain to 195 countries. As far as the statistics are concerned, I will provide tables and more specific sources in my brief. A panoply of data shows an undeniable effect. There is an increase of at least 10% when measures are applied. That's major.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Very good.

I simply look forward to obtaining the documentation that corroborates your assertions.

My second question is about all the other groups, which you have called "racialized." That's the first time I hear that term. I imagine it's a group that brings together various people. That's good. Sorry about my ignorance in that regard.

Should we break the population down into each and every one of the groups in order to give them a place within the political parties?

[Mercédez Roberge]

No. What's important is that we ensure that society's fundamental components are represented; that they not only have the right to vote, but also the right to represent and be represented. When I used the term "right", it's understood that there is no rule that prevents this, but that there are obstacles that interfere. Accordingly, the term "racialized persons" is the term increasingly used to encompass visible minorities who are discriminated against, and people born abroad. They are people who are currently under-represented.

Elsewhere in the world, the term "ethnocultural minorities" is used. "Racialized persons" is the synonym that's being used more and more in Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Rayes, your time is up.

Mr. Boulerice, the floor is yours.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies, for being here, and for your presentations, which give us a good deal to think about and discuss.

Ms. Roberge, I find it interesting that you say that all fundamental components of society must take part in the decision-making. I think this partly answers Mr. Rayes' question about whether we want to give ourselves a Parliament that reflects the diversity of voices and the socio-demographic, ethnic or gender realities of society, or whether we should continue to leave it to a bunch of 60-year-old white male lawyers to decide society's future and solve its problems.

You mentioned that you support a proportional voting system for several reasons. You are talking about a mixed proportional system with compensatory lists. Should the lists be established by province? By sub-region within the provinces? Or should they be Canada-wide? And should they be closed or open?

[Mercédez Roberge]

Naturally, we will not be deciding the shape of the electoral map for the entire country in this committee, but it would make sense for Canada to have a subdivision—certainly by province, but possibly also by administrative region, or something similar to that.

This would make sure, not only with regard to racialized persons—as a group, rather than one by one or any culture in particular—that the system would be aligned with the demographics, with their territorial presence, for allocation purposes. But I don't have a more specific opinion about the number of lists that would be needed. However, it would make no sense not to divide by province, and it might be more efficient to do so.

However, one must ensure that the subdivisions are of an effective size. A subdivision with only two or three seats would not allow for effective compensation. So there is a challenge of efficacy.

If we want the mechanisms included in the lists to be fully effective, we assume it's the political parties' responsibility to draw them up in an order that complies with the rules. That means using closed lists.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Robertson, your presentation interesting and touching. Like Mr. Aldag, I'm happy you've started to participate and vote in elections. It's heartwarming for me, as a democrat.

Just to put things in perspective, you mentioned that you used to think voting wouldn't change anything, and that your vote didn't count. In fact, the current voting system contributes to that impression. In some electoral districts, people managed to win with 35% of the votes. That means that 65% of the people who cast their ballot in those districts are not represented in Parliament. It would have made no difference if they'd stayed home.

In Canada as a whole, 9 million of the votes cast in the last federal election did not elect a single person. There is no route for the voices expressed in those votes to be heard in Parliament. So it's not just an impression, it's a fact.

You've made interesting suggestions, such as polling stations in Native Friendship Centres. What could we do to improve the participation of the various First Nations, and of Métis, in the electoral process, and perhaps to have Aboriginal and Métis people in Parliament?

[France Robertson]

The television ads about participation, citizenship and the right to vote don't work. The Elections Canada ads are certainly cute, but you have to reach out to people. You have to go and meet them. For us, getting people involved so they can be part of the change is important.

We continue to give workshops in which we explain the Indian Act and how it works. Today, I was explaining what this committee and the voting system are about, and I asked the people what they thought. There's an election every four years, but nothing seems to happen between elections. We need to show that something happens between each election.

More and more indigenous candidates are interested in the voting process, or in running. That's because something happened between the two elections. There was interest, and people decided they wanted to be part of the change as well. Roméo Saganash is a good example of this. He wanted to be part of the change. That's why it's important to us. I continue to say that we must go out into the field—into the communities—and reach out to indigenous organizations such as Friendship Centres. We could go to the voting places too.

It's not enough to invite people to get involved, because they will often say they feel a lack of connection to the process, since it's only about non-indigenous people. Indigenous people need to feel they have a stake. This means we must raise awareness. That must start right away. In my view, it's very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

It's Mr. Ste-Marie's turn now.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to welcome everyone in attendance today.

I should explain that Mr. Thériault is the regular member of our committee who represents the Bloc québecois. However, I'm his replacement for this tour, because we only have one seat, which we share. He spoke during the preceding period, and it's my turn this time. I will have to speak quickly, to make up for lost time.

Ms. Robertson, Ms. Roberge, thank you for coming to speak to us today.

My first question is for you, Ms. Roberge.

You spoke about proportionality, and the importance of additional mechanisms to promote the election of women to Parliament. You also spoke about financial measures such as reimbursement rules, and other matters. The share of public funding that went to supporting political parties has been abolished. Do you think it would be a good idea to restore that funding?

[Mercédez Roberge]

Definitely, because it would provide an additional incentive. In Quebec, the voting system reforms sought by Mouvement Démocratie Nouvelle were financial in nature as well. They, too, called for an increase in the annual allowance for parties, which was based on the number of votes. Its abolition was not just an enormous loss for democracy, it also deprived us of yet another instrument.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

I will now ask Ms. Robertson some questions. We usually use "tu" in our French conversations, and speak informally, but since the meeting is broadcast and will be archived, I will be using "vous", Ms. Robertson.

You said it's important to increase the number of measures to facilitate voting by indigenous people. You spoke about a card. I'm not sure what you meant. Is it the card made of thick paper?

[France Robertson]

Exactly. The famous card is a challenge for our families, because if someone loses the card, they can't vote. Certain people went to the polling station and were told they needed to have the card, and they didn't have it. That alone was a challenge. It's why many families didn't vote. Why not just show an ID card?

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I think we heard that in Manitoba. A woman who was representing a union, but was also indigenous, told us the same thing.

[France Robertson]

So I'm not the only person to mention it.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

There are already polling stations in Joliette. Why would putting one more station in Friendship Centres make a difference for Aboriginal people?

[France Robertson]

If you go directly to where they are, the participation rate for Aboriginals will increase.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

It's a place of their own, and they know the location.

[France Robertson]

That's right. Some of our families in the area only speak Atikamekw. It's useful to speak English and French, which are the two official languages, but at our centre, when we want to explain the importance of voting, and we want it to have an impact, we do it in Atikamekw. We also have to explain the procedure.

The fact that things take place in French, then, is a reason they don't go to a polling place. An instruction, such as telling someone to go to a certain station and to bring a card, is something commonplace for you, but for them, it's complicated. If someone could explain the procedure in Atikamekw, it would be much easier for them.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Understood. Thank you.

Would it be a good idea for a Quebec MP to be elected specifically to represent the First Nations of Quebec, regardless of whether we switch to a proportional system?

[France Robertson]

An Aboriginal MP who would represent Aboriginal people? Certainly.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

When we asked this question at the committee hearings in Manitoba, a woman said to us that since there are 40 Aboriginal nations in Alberta, it would not be very representative.

In your view, would an Aboriginal who speaks on behalf of Quebec's Aboriginal people be a good idea?