Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2016

[France Robertson]

Earlier, I referred to the "nation to nation" concept. One day, it might be possible. Since we're talking about it now, why not?

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[France Robertson]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There is a bit more than a minute left.

[Mercédez Roberge]

A compensatory system with lists would make it possible for a member elected informally via this method—once they are in the National Assembly or Parliament, it would be the same—to bring a specialty to bear. Even if he is not elected for a specific territory, he might have the Aboriginal nations file to deal with. That's a possibility that doesn't exist in the current system, but it would be advantageous for many topics, including the topic of indigenous people.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

I'll be brief. For Manawan and for Aboriginal communities, it would be easy to identify them using their card. Are there other methods to implement in this regard?

[France Robertson]

It would be a good idea to go into the communities, and to have polling places there. No doubt about it.

One point should be noted when the vote produces a majority. For example, in the last election, given the national trend favouring the Liberals, Aboriginal people might have wondered if they were going to win their election when it seemed the Bloc would be winning their constituency.

This is why I said, earlier, that every four years, there would need to be awareness raising. Things can change in a riding. One must be careful. There needs to be an effort to raise awareness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Ms. May, you have the floor.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is the second time we welcome a group made up only of women. It's cause for celebration. Thank you for your work, and welcome to this committee.

My question is for Ms. Robertson.

You might not be aware that in the New Zealand Parliament, there are seats reserved exclusively for Aboriginal persons. Only Aboriginal people can vote for those reserved seats. Aboriginal people can also run for a party in the other districts, in regular elections. New Zealand is the only country in the world where Aboriginal people have a proportion of MPs equivalent to their population.

What do you think about the system used in New Zealand? Would it be a good idea for Canada?

[France Robertson]

It's special, because we draw considerable inspiration from New Zealand. For example, our approach, the culturally relevant and safe approach, is based on New Zealand's.

Currently, as you are aware, there is an Assembly of First Nations for Canada, and, an Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador at the provincial level. We're represented by a chief, but he has no seat in the legislature. Early, I referred to the "nation to nation" concept. If that person could have a seat in the National Assembly, it would be a plus for us. We feel that way, and would like to be able to talk on that basis.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

I would also like to thank Ms. Roberge for all her work.

I continue to believe that we need a proportional system. One reason for this is that I think women's representation is higher in all national legislatures where there is a proportional voting system.

As part of its work, this committee has heard about different kinds of proportional systems, and their various advantages. They are the systems that foster women's representation the most. You've proposed a mixed system with lists. The system that favours such representation the least is the transferable vote system. The other rules are still in question. Everywhere else, proportional voting systems favour a higher rate of representation for women than Canada's current system, which is the worst in this regard.

What are the other things society must do in order to implement a proportional voting system and encourage women to be MPs?

[Mercédez Roberge]

It's important to send the public the message that we need an egalitarian Parliament that respects and favours political pluralism. That's how we will attract more women candidates who have a profile that is not well-represented at the moment.

A change to the voting system is an opportunity to do this, but it needs to be done right the first time. I stress that it's essential to combine a mixed compensatory proportional system, which is a good system, with the appropriate mechanisms. Changing the voting system alone will not be sufficient. Moreover, we know that it will not produce much in the way of results.

When we know a problem exists and do nothing to correct it, despite knowing that a method at our disposal could improve things, we are choosing to allow the problem to continue. I consider that very important, and it's why the documentation about the experience of various countries shows that if we choose not to change the voting system and not to take measures right away, we will be saying to ourselves, as a society, that it's a principle we hold, but one we've chosen not to act on. That would be very unfortunate.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Ms. May.

Ms. Romanado, you have the floor.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the two witnesses for their presentation and to the citizens here today.

We heard two very important presentations. As an elected woman, I certainly find it important to have more women in the House of Commons.

Ms. Roberge, you spoke of two situations. Do you think the problem is convincing women to run for office or is it that women candidates don't win in ridings where they run?

I am asking you because those are two completely different things. If the problem is that women don't want to run, I don't think the current electoral system will change anything. If the problem instead is that it's difficult for women to win—which was not the case for me because I won—what can we do to solve the two problems?

[Mercédez Roberge]

When one woman is elected, we must not assume it will be as easy for others. Structural barriers and obstacles exist. The socio-economic level is statistically lower for woman and racialized people, and for some groups of men in relation to the total population. Therefore, an individual case does not represent the statistics, regardless of your case in particular.

The problem isn't that no women want to run for office. I would encourage you to meet with organizations such as Groupe Femmes, Politique et Démocratie that are working hard in that area and that meet daily with women who want to start in politics. The political parties have an important role to play. If I use only my address book to fill a position, I use only my own network. If I want to look outside my network, I have to make an extra effort. I must browse through other people's books. My book and your book will not be the same. Political parties are completely responsible for looking outside their usual network for candidates, particularly women.

When telephone calls are made, the candidates will show up. I believe the change to the electoral system will also help encourage women to run. Personally, I would not run under the current electoral system. Maybe one day I'll run under a proportional electoral system, but not under the current system. It would be a losing battle. However, it may depend on the location of my constituency. It's not right that my chances depend only on where I live. However, that's how the current system works.

In short, changing the electoral system will also encourage a diversity of candidates, particularly women, but also racialized people.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I am currently working with the organization you mentioned. I know it's different in a woman's case. Women need to be asked a number of times to run before they do so, in comparison with men. We sometimes hear that women run in constituencies where they have no chance of winning. However, would it be possible that women don't run because the working conditions of MPs are not favourable?

Personally, I have two grown children. However, I didn't know there was no maternity leave in the House of Commons. So if a woman plans to raise a family, she must take leave without pay. There is no daycare for children at certain times. What do people do when they have children? Currently, one MP brings her child to the House. What happens when a vote takes place late in the evening and people have no babysitter?

I think work needs to be done in the House to improve working conditions, and not only for women and young families.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Your time is up, Ms. Romanado. You were able to ask your question.

Ms. Roberge, you can still respond the next time you have the floor.

Go ahead, Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here today at this panel.

This is most interesting. I want to pick up on what my colleague just mentioned, and some of the things that you said, Ms. Roberge, from your comments earlier and again just now.

You were saying that reforming the voting process isn't enough in this whole process to make the changes required for gender equality and perhaps other sectors of equality that you'd like to see and that are needed. We went partway in the last election by adding 30 more seats in the House of Commons. That provides a bit more equality, because Canada is based on an electoral system based on representation by population. That won't change, but that provided a bit more equality because we've had more Canadians come into the system, and it was time to bring that to more evenness as well.

You made some comments about the things that were needed for reform, and it wasn't good enough. Can you name some things that you would like to see changed in the reform area that couldn't be done under the present system?

[Mercédez Roberge]

I didn't say it wasn't enough to change the electoral system. I said it was essential to change it and that it was just as essential, at the same time, to have mechanisms to achieve equal representation and inclusion. It's not the same.

I don't see how, in the current first past the post system, we can achieve the same results as those we could obtain through the combination of a proportional electoral system and various measures. I don't see how it can be done, other than by electing two people per constituency, a man and a woman, a system that wouldn't be very easy to sell. I don't think the idea would be very easy to sell or buy.

I want to go back to the balance between political work and family life. All the other measures and mechanisms are good, but insufficient. They would not replace an actual change in democracy and equality. Of course, the Parliament work rules must be changed, but that alone isn't enough. A combination of approaches must be implemented. My recommendations include approaches I had to set aside earlier for lack of time. Also, by changing the electoral system, Parliament must adapt to its new composition. Since there will be greater representation from more parties, the House will have elected officials whose styles differ from those of the current officials. There will be more women.

We must also change our way of doing things, increase budgets so that MPs can meet more with their constituents, and change the work rules to promote a balance between political life and family life. This should be done at the same time. One does not replace the other. We are at a global review stage. Now is the time to act. We have the chance to do it, and it's the time to act.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

I'd like to note as well that I was mentioning to some of my colleagues last night that it was 17 years since my first election and I absolutely know that it was women who got me involved in this process; they thought I should run. So you could use the analogy that I've been running ever since.

You mentioned that 67% of people in some of the polls you've seen like PR, proportional representation. We've also seen that 73% of Canadians want a referendum before anything is instituted in Canada as far as a change in the electoral process is concerned, and that only 3% are looking at strategic votes, and we talk about strategic votes. A number of witnesses have said that we have to be careful that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater in regard to making a change that may only impact the outcome of the seats in the House by 1% or 2%. I acknowledge that. Others have said we have one of the best systems in the world, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'd be the first one to say that. Those are some numbers that may seem to contradict each other, but I think we need to look at them very seriously in regard to the type of process we come up with.

I appreciate your comments about the OECD countries, and the processes that you've used there.

I guess what I want to say is, would all parties go through some kind of a vetting process to look at candidates before they were finally signed on to run for any particular political party that we have? Do you think we should continue with that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Very, very briefly, please.

[Mercédez Roberge]

In what order should we continue? On what same path should we continue?

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Well, there's the vetting process as far as already scrutinizing candidates that can run for political parties. There have been quotas suggested, whether it's for race or for gender. Those types of things can be used. I believe they can be used under the present system as well, and I wonder if you think we should continue with the vetting process as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

The parties are advised to use positive methods to ensure a certain number of candidates are elected.

[Mercédez Roberge]

Therefore, in our proposals, we suggest financial improvements. Parties would be encouraged to increase the value of their reimbursements. We're not using a punitive framework, but an incentive framework. It can help.