Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[Shelby Maunder]

No, I don't, actually.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That's something I was wondering about. I was curious about other countries where that was the voting age and whether the measure was successful. I don't see why it wouldn't work well. If I have time, I'll come back to you.

Now I have a question for Mr. McKinnon about what my colleague Nathan Cullen said.

You said earlier that it would be difficult to achieve true proportionality across Canada's federation, given the vastness of the territories. At the same time, unless I'm mistaken, you said you weren't in favour of a hybrid system. For example, in a Yukon riding with the current voting method in place, it would be difficult to implement another system such as the compensatory mixed member proportional system. Similarly, in urban centres with a large multi-member regional riding, seats could be distributed proportionally. Is that indeed what you think?

[John McKinnon]

Yes. I watched many of the sessions of the B.C. citizens' assembly, and it was the most democratic method of trying to come up with a voting system. There were 161 members chosen, as Mr. Cullen well knows, through that system. The ordinary members of the public were just wonderful in the way they went about their business. The citizens' assembly had 161 members, and when they started talking about a hybrid system in the northern regions, all of these ordinary B.C. folks said, no, they didn't want to see a hybrid system. They said that if they were going to go proportional, they were all going to agree with the proportional system of government. They thought it would be two classes of members if they went with a hybrid system.

When I extrapolate those 161 members to everybody across the country, I think that's probably a pretty good representation of Canadians. Canadians would say that they don't want a hybrid system, that they don't want certain ridings to follow one method of voting while others follow a different method.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

I have the same question for Ms. Maunder and Ms. Michaud.

Ms. Maunder, where do you stand on a hybrid system?

[Shelby Maunder]

I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to comment on that one.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

What about you, Ms. Michaud?

[Élaine Michaud]

Hybrid systems come in various forms. Do we add members to achieve proportionality under the new voting system? Do we create ridings in places where the same system remains in place? In urban ridings, do we introduce a proportional system? It's a complex issue, but one worth considering.

What I am about to say reflects my personal view and not the position of the NDP. I'm not against adding members to achieve proportionality under the new voting system. However, it obviously does give rise to more costs and so forth, so it's an option that requires thorough review.

Again, as I said, this is my personal opinion as a political science graduate. This is an idea I studied when I was in school. I'm not opposed to a hybrid system if it genuinely means that Canadians' voices will be better represented after the election.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

In a nutshell, then, I would add that those are really the issues at play. Voters want a proportional system to close the gap between the number of seats and the number of votes, but, at the same time, they want a direct link with their elected representative. And that's where the challenge lies.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Ms. May, over to you.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Élaine, I'm delighted to see you again. Welcome to our committee.

I wanted to ask the question about how people in the Yukon would react to a system where there were two kinds of voting.

One thing to mention to you, Mr. McKinnon, is that you said you can't imagine a system of proportionality without multiple member ridings. However, there actually is such a system in mixed member proportional. The ridings stay the same. The members are elected through first past the post, or you could tinker with it, and then the proportionality comes from seats that are not attached to a riding. There are issues there, and there are different values attached to different systems, but we could imagine a system without multiple member ridings.

I'm just wondering if you've ever looked at what happened in Manitoba, when they had different voting systems in different parts of the province in response to the different interests of the rural versus more urban parts of Manitoba's electorate. It was some time ago.

[John McKinnon]

I did look at it some 10 years ago. I don't think I could say that I am current on it.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Well, no one is current on it, because it was so long ago. We do have experience in Canada with changing our voting systems in different ways. The system that Jean-Pierre Kingsley suggested to the committee would cluster ridings but only in urban areas, and leave alone the areas that are far, northern, and remote.

I can tell you that I have had conversations with some of the people who served on the B.C. citizens' assembly, and they said very forcibly to me that when they went and consulted in northern B.C., northern B.C. residents of more remote, sparsely populated ridings felt very strongly that they wanted their vote to count just as much as that of people in urban clusters. That is why they went the route to full STV recommended in the B.C. citizens' assembly.

This question really matters. What do people in northern Canada want? I put it to the witnesses we had on the first panel, Kirk Cameron, Peter Becker, and Gerald Haase, who want proportionality. They said that as long as proportionality is there nationally, it wouldn't matter to them too much if their system of voting didn't change here in the Yukon.

I would like to ask all three of you the same question. I think I know your answer, Mr. McKinnon. If proportionality was achieved nationally, would it offend you as a Yukon resident and citizen if you didn't see your vote counted differently than it is right now?

[John McKinnon]

I have looked at Stéphane Dion's system, where the northern territories remain the same, and Jean-Pierre Kingsley's, where the northern territories remain the same. They are both advocating a hybrid system, where proportionality would be in effect in certain areas of Canada, and first past the post would remain in other areas of Canada.

I heard some of the discussion this afternoon. There was some comment about perhaps an extra seat being added to the three northern territories to have some minimum amount of proportionality in an election. I heard some of the members say that they thought Canada would be quite generous to that type of approach.

I really don't know if Canadians would be that generous to this kind of approach. Since I have been away from politics, I hear more and more that most Canadians aren't looking for more members of Parliament, particularly when the northern ridings are really well done by, by having only—what was it, Larry?—30,000 voters in the last election, about half the size of any riding in the rest of Canada. Nunavut had 18,000, and the Northwest Territories maybe 38,000.

Do we really think, and is it proper, with those small numbers of electors, that the northern ridings get another member? I somehow don't think Canadians are quite as generous as maybe some members think they would be, in adding members to northern ridings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Mr. DeCourcey, go ahead.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our three panellists.

On behalf of my fellow Acadians in New Brunswick, I'd like to thank all the francophone Yukoners here this evening for their hospitality.

I want to allow Ms. Maunder to continue with the same line of questioning that Ms. May just posed. You mentioned that your preferred choice would be an MMP system, if we were to move to a form of proportional representation. Although we have heard some testimony to the contrary tonight, and elsewhere in our deliberations, the vast majority of witnesses who testify in front of us laid out a system of MMP whereby the territories would retain a single-member district, probably elected through first past the post, although you could move to an alternative vote for those ridings as well.

Would that be palatable for young people in the Yukon if the rest of Canada were to adopt some form of proportionality but your vote in the riding would continue to elect an MP more or less the same way?

[Shelby Maunder]

Again, I'm reluctant to speak on behalf of all youth.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

No, I think that's a fair comment. Please share your view, then.

[Shelby Maunder]

In my work, we try to increase youth being heard. I feel that retaining that system here, where they're not feeling heard through the electoral system, is probably not palatable to me.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Fair enough.

In the conversation around lowering the voter age to 16, is there any movement within your organization to lobby perhaps the territorial government or municipal councils to look at that move as a way to demonstrate its potential success to the rest of Canada?

[Shelby Maunder]

Not at this time, but it's not a bad idea.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

In our deliberations we're always asking our witnesses to provide evidence from other jurisdictions. Perhaps that's a way in which a region of this country can demonstrate that lowering the voting age would allow young people to become engaged earlier, and then continue to be engaged in the process as they move along.

Ms. Maunder, you mentioned in your testimony that, yes, young people want their vote to count, but also big issues move the youth voter turnout at election time. What other things should we be cognizant of in not laying all the ills of low voter turnout on the current electoral system, in your view?

[Shelby Maunder]

Sorry, could you repeat that one more time?

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

We've heard time and again that, yes, there are Canadians who feel as though their vote doesn't count, so they don't turn out, but also, when there's not a big issue to move them to the voting booth, they don't show up. Or as Mr. McKinnon, tongue-in-cheek, testified this evening, there are a lot of things going on that keep people from showing up. What other sorts of factors should we be reminded of in our deliberations about wanting to increase voter participation?

We've heard a variety of testimony—André Blais' testimony sticks out—that a proportional system may help see voter participation increase by 3%, 4%, or 5%, but that's it's not a panacea, as one of our speakers at the open mike said earlier.

[Shelby Maunder]

Right. I don't know what it would look like exactly, but I think there's something to be said for electronic voting, if we're talking about competing with other things that are going on and having barriers to vote, whether it be transportation or knowing where your polling station is. I think that way could work and would certainly engage youth.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Mr. McKinnon, do you have anything to add on other ways we can enhance voter turnout and voter participation?