Evidence of meeting #36 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was riding.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Bickerton  Professor, As an Individual
Kenneth Dewar  Professor, As an Individual
Matt Risser  As an Individual
Denis Falvey  As an Individual
Christopher Majka  Director, Democracy: Vox Populi
Michael Marshall  As an Individual
Robert Batherson  As an Individual
Deirdre Wear  As an Individual
Shauna Wilcox  As an Individual
Jessica Smith  As an Individual
William Zimmerman  As an Individual
Howard Epstein  As an Individual
Nan McFadgen  As an Individual
Marlene Wells  As an Individual
Stephen Chafe  As an Individual
Suzanne MacNeil  As an Individual
Thomas Trappenberg  As an Individual
David Blackwell  As an Individual
Michael McFadden  As an Individual
Kim Vance  As an Individual
David Barrett  As an Individual
Brian Gifford  As an Individual
Mark Coffin  Executive Director, Springtide Collective
Andy Blair  President, Fair Vote Nova Scotia
Larry Pardy  As an Individual
Aubrey Fricker  As an Individual
Daniel Sokolov  As an Individual
Francis MacGillivray  As an Individual
Chris Maxwell  As an Individual
Alan Ruffman  As an Individual
Hannah Dawson-Murphy  As an Individual
Richard Zurawski  As an Individual
Matthew McMillan  As an Individual
Robert Berard  As an Individual
Daniel Makenzie  As an Individual
Patrice Deschênes  As an Individual
Suzanne Hauer  As an Individual

3 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Kenneth Dewar

Okay.

I like your idea of the ecology of the electoral system. You won't be surprised to hear that I disagree with Jim, but I think there are other ways of going. I don't think it's just Senate reform. There's parliamentary committee reform.

If I may hark back to my position as a historian, there is teaching in the schools. There is the teaching of civics in the schools. There's an old book called What Culture? What Heritage? published about 50 years ago that I would suggest people pull off the shelf. It comes out of a nationalist era, but it's about teaching citizens in your classrooms, teaching your students as though they are going to be citizens, at least for part of the time that they spend in school.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We've heard that a lot, actually, in our hearings.

Thank you so much to both of you for a very engaging discussion.

I mentioned this the other day when we were in another city. After 35 meetings you kind of figure you've heard it all, but every meeting in every part of the country brings some added value, and you certainly didn't disappoint in that respect today. I thank you very much for all the work you put into coming here and presenting to us.

We'll have a short break for five minutes, and then we'll greet our next panel.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to our second panel.

We have with us, appearing as individuals, Mr. Matt Risser and Mr. Denis Falvey; and representing Democracy: Vox Populi, Christopher Majka, director.

Each witness will have five minutes, which will be followed by a round of questions in which every member has five minutes to engage with the witnesses.

We'll get right to it with Mr. Risser, please, for five minutes.

3:10 p.m.

Matt Risser As an Individual

For everyone's information, Denis and I are a bit of a double act. Between the two of us we'll only take five minutes, which I hope leaves more time for questions.

First of all, welcome to Halifax.

Thank you for agreeing to hear from us about single member district proportional representation, SMDPR, a made-for-Canada list PR system that changes as little as possible from first past the post.

The purpose of voting in Canada is to periodically transfer power from the people to their representatives, who then form the House of Commons and enact the laws under which we all must live. In this regard, the democratic equality of one person, one vote is a hollow phrase if it doesn't comprehend equal voice for votes in Parliament or equal transfers of power. Indeed, the lack of equal voice for votes constitutes a threat to the democratic principles of one person, one vote, majority rule, the rule of law, equality before the law, and the protection of minorities.

Although MPs advocate for all their constituents equally on local matters, each MP speaks with only one partisan voice in Parliament. Plurality rule at the riding level, which is inherent to first past the post, effectively silences any other partisan voices from their riding in Parliament. Across the country, more than half the partisan voices of the electorate are excluded in this way. This is the primary cause of our current system's acknowledged ills.

To take an example, in the 2015 federal election, about 30% of the electorate didn't vote, and 32% voted for losing candidates, all transferring no power. About 11% were surplus votes that winning candidates didn't require, transferring no useful power. The opposition was formed on a useful transfer of power from 9% of the electorate, and a strong majority government from 10%. In all, 81% of the electorate either did or could have stayed home, and the results would have been the same. Previous elections yielded comparable results.

Clearly, neither majority rule nor equal voice for equal votes exists in our current system. Since the plurality always wins now, and most votes don't count, one simple way to ensure that most votes count is for the plurality to not always win. After all, if plurality rule is the problem, then fixing it alone is at least an obvious solution to investigate. Recognizing that the only things that electoral reform can change are the ballot, the riding boundaries, the number and nature of MPs, and the way the vote is counted, SMDPR changes only the way the vote is counted.

To summarize briefly, SMDPR allots seats proportionally within predetermined regions and then ranks each party's local candidates to determine who will fill those seats, with each riding represented by one candidate who ran in that riding. To win, a candidate must rank highly in a party that was allotted seats and must be more popular than any other such candidate in the riding. Plurality rule remains one determinant of winning, but it is no longer the sole determinant.

By maintaining the same ballot, riding boundaries, number of MPs, and their local nature, SMDPR demonstrates that moving from first past the post toward treating everyone's vote fairly is not a binary choice between maintaining the status quo and completely overhauling the system.

In conclusion, equal voice for votes is critical to a modern definition of democracy. PR is the political face in Parliament of the right to equal voice for votes at the ballot box. One implies the other, but we needn't change all that much to achieve both.

Thank you for your kind attention, and we look forward to your questions.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Falvey, are you presenting at all?

October 4th, 2016 / 3:15 p.m.

Denis Falvey As an Individual

No, I'm going to beg off on the grounds that I have some problems speaking. I can go for a while, but unfortunately, I then start coughing. I will answer questions if they come.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Sure.

Mr. Majka.

3:15 p.m.

Christopher Majka Director, Democracy: Vox Populi

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

I'm Christopher Majka, director of Democracy: Vox Populi, an advocacy group concerned with democratic and electoral issues. I have also been active for a decade with Fair Vote Canada, and its chapter here, Fair Vote Nova Scotia, as well as with Project Democracy, all of which are interested in issues of electoral and democratic reform.

I'd like to begin by saying that electoral reform is critically important for the future of Canadian democracy. The idea that citizens should determine the governance of a country was a radical one that originated in the 6th century BC, in Athens. For over two and a half millennia, it has spread throughout much of the world, and as it has dispersed it has evolved.

In Athens only land-owning men who were over 20 and were not slaves were permitted to vote. In Canada, the secret ballot was introduced in 1874, and women were enfranchised in 1918. There were once voting restrictions related to wealth, religion, race, and ethnicity in Canada. All these have now been eliminated and we recognize that they're incompatible with an inclusive, egalitarian and fair society.

One important obstacle that does remain is the first-past-the-post electoral system. It's understandable how it came into being. From 1867 to 1920—

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Excuse me, Mr. Majka, for the benefit of the interpreters please go a bit slower. We'll give you more time if you need it.

3:15 p.m.

Director, Democracy: Vox Populi

Christopher Majka

Okay. Thank you.

There were effectively two political parties, Conservatives and Liberals. In a two party polity, first past the post produces acceptably democratic outcomes, and for the first third of our country's existence that was how things were done. However, in 1921, the Progressive Party and United Farmers Party came into being. Since then—almost a century—there has never been a period when less than three, and frequently four or five political parties, have been represented in Parliament.

The proliferation of parties characterizes the evolution of democracy in the 20th and 21st centuries and is a positive development that we need to attune our electoral system to. It doesn't require great mathematical acumen to understand why first past the post begins to break down when there are more than two parties. The greater the number, the more unrepresentative are electoral outcomes as a result of splits in the vote.

Because outcome is determined exclusively by which party's candidate is first, de facto every vote cast for every candidate other than the runner-up amounts to a vote for the winner. This leads to highly unrepresentative results in which the spectrum of elected candidates can depart dramatically from levels of support in the country. Thus, parties that have significant support, but rank numerically second in many ridings have a much diminished chance of parliamentary representation. Parties ranked third or fourth, even though they may include hundreds of thousands of Canadians, have only a miniscule chance of representation.

This is problematic for the democratic health of a country. First of all, on first principles, we ought to strive for a Parliament that fairly represents the spectrum of political belief in our country. Second, with a plurality of parties in the political field, outcomes under the first-past-the-post system give rise to the view that many ballots are wasted and that these political convictions result in no meaningful democratic expression. Such voters feel disenfranchised by the system. This, not unreasonably, gives rise to political cynicism, and nowhere more so than among young voters.

I'm not suggesting that first past the post is entirely responsible for a declining turnout, but there is evidence that unrepresented outcomes contribute to an alienation from electoral participation and political engagement. Canada has not been alone in this regard, and many mature, stable democracies in the developed world have adopted better electoral systems. Indeed, in the developed world, only Canada, Great Britain and the United States continue to employ first past the post. Systems of proportional representation are employed in 94 countries at last count. Voters in all these jurisdictions have been able to understand and employ PR, and there's no reason to suppose that Canadians would be any less adept.

There are a number of different approaches to proportional representation, including party list, mixed member and single transferable vote systems, and there are variations on how these are implemented. There's a large discourse around their respective advantages. However, I'm not going to encumber you with a pitch for one or the other since, in my view, the most salient issue is that we implement proportional representation and not, for example, a ranked ballot system. In my view, electoral systems that are based on pure proportionality, such as those in Israel or Italy, would not be suitable in the Canadian context.

It's also worth underscoring that although electoral reform is not a panacea for all political problems, it can play an important role in contributing to a more productive political climate. With minority or coalition governments a frequent outcome with proportional representation, there is a necessity for political parties to work together. With several parties around the table, everyone has a stake in reaching a mutually acceptable solution. With representatives of multiple parties involved in decision making, there's a sense of ownership of the decision, even if every party did not achieve all that was desired. Simply put, this results in better governance and an easier path for public acceptance of government decisions.

Finally, with respect to ranked ballot systems, which are used for federal elections only in Australia and Papua New Guinea, this approach produces more representative results than first past the post in a non-partisan context. It is, however, a winner-take-all majoritarian approach which, while suitable for selecting a single position, is completely unsuitable for selecting a representative body and does nothing to address proportional inequalities.

For all these reasons, our choice in Canada should be clear. For a vibrant democracy and representative fairness, we require the implementation of a system of proportional representation.

Thank you.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

We'll go to questions now.

Mr. DeCourcey, for five minutes.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you very much, and thank you to all of our presenters this morning.

Mr. Risser, I wonder if you could explain in a little more depth for the four of us on this side and everyone else in the committee exactly what single member district proportional representation effectively does as the person goes to the ballot and what the results might look like.

3:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Matt Risser

Okay.

We weren't aware of the others, but I think you guys heard about fairly similar systems from Mr. Green in Alberta and Ms. Tremblay yesterday in Montreal. I'm not sure they're entirely comparable because I haven't seen their briefs, but they seem broadly similar. The only difference I can see is that they seem to allocate seats by party in sequence, and ours are simultaneous, so all parties would get their seats.

Let's take Nova Scotia as an example, because we're in Nova Scotia. You'd take the total vote that all of the local candidates running in the province of Nova Scotia got. That determines how many seats each party is allocated, and then you rank the candidates in each party according to how well they performed in their individual ridings. The top performers get the seats to which their party is entitled, unless there's a situation where two parties match one candidate to the same seat; then whichever of the two candidates got the more votes wins.

It's a proportional system that maintains the single member in a district, so there's only one person who ran in each riding representing each riding now. As with the other systems that you heard about, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the person who got the most votes in that riding.

Does that help?

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

It does, and I thought that was where we were headed. In Nova Scotia, last election, you would have had 11 Liberal candidates win the popular vote in each riding—have a plurality of the popular vote, and in some cases a majority of the popular vote in each riding—but only seven of them would have been elected

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

You would have had four first place finishers in the ridings who would have not taken the seat, and either the second or potentially the third place finisher in that riding would take the seat.

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Do you see the psychological barrier that may be in play here as we explain to voters that, yes, they might vote for a candidate who carries the greatest number of votes in a riding but will not be necessarily elected to that seat?

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Matt Risser

We fully expected that.

Denis has a prepared answer that he can read to you on that point.

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Denis Falvey

It will take a couple of minutes. Is that a problem?

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Absolutely not. Go ahead.

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Denis Falvey

When a candidate with the most votes loses, we call it a losing plurality just to define terms, a plurality being the most votes, whether or not it's a majority—the most votes.

To explain losing pluralities, it's important to understand why they sometimes occur, but it's also important to consider their effects on the voters, parties, and candidates. SMDPR shifts focus away from individual candidate performance in ridings toward team performance by parties in regions, attempting to draft the best of each party for the proportionately allotted seats.

The only reason a person loses a plurality under SMDPR is that their party has already won so much that any more would be unfair. This is specifically because each vote is given equal voice in Parliament on a regional basis and not discarded among the wasted votes on a riding basis. Should Parliament be animated by the voices of the nation, or should those voices be silenced in ridings by the plurality rule? Would we rather accept that a candidate might sometimes lose with the most votes or that a majority government might rule with the fewest votes?

In exchange for a losing plurality under SMDPR, the voter gets a voice in Parliament, a local representative with a huge incentive to perform well, increased accountability of the MP in the next election, and an incentive to engage the system. Parties have incentives to contest every vote everywhere, are allotted appropriate partisan voice, and get mostly their best candidates elected. Candidates know that safe ridings and wasted votes can't preclude them from winning. It is possible to be elected in any riding, and they know their efforts help the party, whether they personally win or lose.

Plurality losses are not a defect of SMDPR. They correct the only defect of our current first-past-the-post system. First past the post is SMDPR with a region size of one, so there's very little change, in that sense.

To a losing plurality candidate I would say, “You did well, but other candidates in your party did better than you, and they took all the seats the people of this region wanted the party to have. The votes for you counted toward your party's success and, in fact, everyone's vote counted equally. That's democracy”.

I've heard the comments that there would be rioting in the streets and civil war. The only way to know if Canadians would accept some losing pluralities as the price for all the other things that you would get out of SMDPR is to ask them.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you.

As I'm listening, I—

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Your time is up.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Oh, no.