Evidence of meeting #36 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was riding.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Bickerton  Professor, As an Individual
Kenneth Dewar  Professor, As an Individual
Matt Risser  As an Individual
Denis Falvey  As an Individual
Christopher Majka  Director, Democracy: Vox Populi
Michael Marshall  As an Individual
Robert Batherson  As an Individual
Deirdre Wear  As an Individual
Shauna Wilcox  As an Individual
Jessica Smith  As an Individual
William Zimmerman  As an Individual
Howard Epstein  As an Individual
Nan McFadgen  As an Individual
Marlene Wells  As an Individual
Stephen Chafe  As an Individual
Suzanne MacNeil  As an Individual
Thomas Trappenberg  As an Individual
David Blackwell  As an Individual
Michael McFadden  As an Individual
Kim Vance  As an Individual
David Barrett  As an Individual
Brian Gifford  As an Individual
Mark Coffin  Executive Director, Springtide Collective
Andy Blair  President, Fair Vote Nova Scotia
Larry Pardy  As an Individual
Aubrey Fricker  As an Individual
Daniel Sokolov  As an Individual
Francis MacGillivray  As an Individual
Chris Maxwell  As an Individual
Alan Ruffman  As an Individual
Hannah Dawson-Murphy  As an Individual
Richard Zurawski  As an Individual
Matthew McMillan  As an Individual
Robert Berard  As an Individual
Daniel Makenzie  As an Individual
Patrice Deschênes  As an Individual
Suzanne Hauer  As an Individual

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We'll open the meeting. Welcome to the 36th meeting of the Special Committee on Electoral Reform. It's our first stop in Atlantic Canada, and we're very pleased to be here.

We have three panels today.

On the first panel we have, appearing as individuals, Professor James Bickerton and Professor Kenneth Dewar.

I'll explain briefly to the witnesses how we've been operating. Each witness will have 10 minutes to present their ideas, and that will be followed by a round of questions whereby each member of the committee will have five minutes to interact with the witnesses. It's possible that at the end of the five minutes you may not have had a chance to fully answer to your satisfaction, but you can pick up where you left off the next time you have the microphone, if you wish. We're pretty free and easy about things like that.

Without further ado, I will give the floor to Professor Bickerton, please.

1:35 p.m.

James Bickerton Professor, As an Individual

Thank you very much. Since our time is tight I'll try to get right to my presentation. I hope you don't mind if I read it. I think that would also make it easier for me.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

All I would ask of the witnesses, for the benefit of the interpreters, is not to read too quickly because they have to keep up.

1:35 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

Okay, thank you.

The question of reforming Canada's electoral system presents both a first-order and second-order problem for party politicians, political analysts, interest groups, and the Canada polity as a whole.

The first-order problem, assessing the pros and cons of the current first-past-the-post system and its main alternatives, has essentially been solved to the satisfaction of most knowledgeable observers engaged in the study of comparative electoral politics and voting behaviour. It has been extensively investigated, documented, and analyzed by academic scholars, specials commissions, and citizens' assemblies. Indeed, at the provincial level, there have been a number of royal commissions and citizens' assemblies that have identified and recommended to their respective legislatures and public, a best alternative to first past the post.

I think it is fair to say that the results are in. As is often repeated, the concerns about alternative electoral systems to first past the post will never be to everyone's complete satisfaction since there are no perfect systems on offer, but by and large, there is an emerging consensus that the serious democratic deficits of first past the post are damaging to the overall quality and long-term functionality of Canada's version of representative democracy.

Further delay in reforming the system seems increasingly difficult to justify. As well, it seems to me that the fundamental principles that should guide the choice of any alternative voting system for Canada are fairly clear and agreed upon. The motion establishing this committee, with its five principles for electoral reform, is a case in point.

Finally, there are the vexing technical questions of how best to incorporate these principles into a viable alternative voting system that would meet Canada's specific needs. As they say, the devil is in the details. However, these technical questions have been addressed fairly successfully elsewhere, through a range of innovations and modifications to standard voting systems. These include hybrid systems such as MMP that seek to combine the benefits of first past the post and PR, the use of seat thresholds to reduce the fragmentation of the vote and eliminate fringe parties, open lists that give more power to voters and allow them to choose between party candidates, ranked ballots that ensure that winning candidates in single member constituencies are supported by a majority of voters, and differential treatment for very large or remote ridings.

I think there are ready solutions available to the first-order problem of electoral system reform.

No similar consensus, however, has emerged on the second-order problem of how and when Canada's politicians might bring about this needed reform of the electoral system. The second-order problem starts with getting sufficiently broad agreement across the political class on both the need for electoral reform and the timeliness of pursuing it now as opposed to in some indefinite future; on which of the many alternatives to the current system is preferable; and finally, on the mechanics of managing the process of moving to a new system, the steps that should be taken, the institutions and individuals involved, the timeframe for implementation, and so on.

It is the second-order problem, it seems to me, that has really bedevilled the electoral reform question in Canada. The distortions in regional representation created by first past the post, the negative long-term political impacts of these representational distortions, and the perverse partisan incentives to double down on political behaviours and strategies that reinforce and perpetuate them were first subjected to intensive scholarly analysis by Professor Alan Cairns in a seminal 1968 article in the Canadian Journal of Political Science. Cairns identified the institutional defects of the first-past-the-post system and their deleterious effect on the character and tenor of national politics and on the quality of representative democracy in Canada. These same defects have been identified time and again in subsequent studies of electoral processes and outcomes.

To briefly summarize, as I'm sure you've been made aware repeatedly in your hearings, these defects are the disproportionality of election results, often severe; the regional amplification effect, so clearly evident in the 2015 result here in Atlantic Canada; the suppression of diverse voices in parliaments and legislatures; the suppression of voter turnout; the detrimental long-term impact on democratic engagement and system legitimacy; and finally, its facilitation, if not exaggeration, of the systemic bias within the Westminster model of parliamentary democracy toward executive dominance.

In 2005 Professor Roger Gibbins, another respected senior political scientist in Canada, revisited the Cairns analysis and updated it to include all the federal election outcomes in the intervening years. He found that not only had the pathological patterns identified by Cairns continued, but arguably they had worsened. This left Gibbins lamenting the fate of hard-working academics whose best efforts to reveal the truths about the inner workings of political institutions have often been met with either stony silence or haughty dismissal by those who temporarily wield power within these institutions. Gibbins concluded his study, which confirmed Cairns' findings and reaffirmed the need for electoral system change, by stating, “Electoral reform with respect to the House of Commons is not going to happen. Not now. Not soon. Not ever.”

This skepticism about the prospect of institutional change is echoed by the cynicism of the media in their coverage of the process with which we are now engaged. Despite the clear pledge of the current Prime Minister, the creation of this parliamentary committee, and the consultations that are currently under way, the jaundiced eye of political journalists and media pundits continues to produce expressions of disbelief that the prospects of change will ever be realized, or that the end result could be anything other than the preferred outcome of the current government, which would be the one, of course, that would redound to their electoral advantage. The skepticism and the cynicism continue, not unjustifiably, it should be said, given the long history of this issue.

After the passage of so much time, why the urgency for electoral reform now? There are a number of possible answers to this question, but I would suggest two.

First, there is the problem of systemic legitimacy, often referred to as a democratic deficit, that is becoming worse given the changing expectations of an increasingly diverse and highly educated population that is less disposed to a shrugging acceptance of “politics as usual”. These citizens want a political system and a parliament that is more responsive to their views, that more closely aligns with their partisan preferences, and that more closely mirrors the composition of the society it purports to represent.

Second, there has emerged in Canada a relatively recent problem, at least in terms of its severity, that has been referred to as “policy lurch”. I say it is relatively recent, because for decades prior to the 1990s Canadian governance was shaped by centrist, brokerage-style politics that moderated the policy shifts that are the normal expectation of a change in government. However, the more ideologically polarized environment that has emerged in Canada since that time has given rise to concerns about more severe instances of policy lurch that are evident in other first-past-the-post jurisdictions with more ideologically polarized party systems. Indeed, it has been cited as one of the main reasons for New Zealand's decision to change its electoral system.

To illustrate the problem, the current Trudeau government has spent much of its first year in office, and will no doubt do the same for a good part of its second year, undoing many of the changes introduced by the previous government, at which point in time they will begin taking steps to prepare the way for the next federal election campaign. Yet a relatively minor shift in votes of five or six percentage points in that election could result in a new government that engages in another round of policy lurch, undoing much of the undoing that this government has been doing. This kind of roundabout “now it's our turn” policy-making can hardly be thought of as beneficial for stable long-term governance that is built on a solid foundation of a reasonably broad societal consensus.

Though perhaps less dramatic in its processes, this mode of consensual governance is the demonstrably better course of action in terms of outcomes for economy and society, and frankly the most valuable contribution that can be made by politicians intent on practising the art of politics rather than engaging in the crass power game of one-upmanship and cyclical dominance.

Changing the voting system means changing the incentives that affect how people vote, that is, their decision-making in the realm of electoral politics. A more proportional system, by making every vote count, would remove fears of vote-splitting and reduce the pressure on voters to engage in strategic voting rather than choosing the candidate or party they most prefer. For party politicians, it would disincentivize knee-jerk adversarialism and reward more respectful cross-party relations and interparty co-operation.

This committee, this Parliament, and this government have a rare opportunity to create the conditions and institutional incentives to “do politics differently”, a frequently voiced intention of new governments and newly minted MPs that inevitably frays and dissolves with the passage of time. This has not been due to the frailties of human nature or a sudden failure of resolve. It is the normal political behaviour encouraged by the design and functioning of our institutions, and particularly the electoral system.

I urge the committee to quell the doubts of the skeptics, to confound the many cynics, and to deliver on its appointed task of recommending to Parliament a new electoral system that will satisfy the five principles set down in the motion creating the committee. I wish you well in your difficult and important deliberations.

Thank you.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Professor.

We'll go now to Professor Dewar.

October 4th, 2016 / 1:45 p.m.

Kenneth Dewar Professor, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the members of the committee for inviting me to speak this afternoon. I'm honoured to be here.

My presentation is in two parts: first, a question, and second, in the written part of my submission, I've expanded on the brief I submitted earlier. In both parts I will find myself departing from the consensus to which Professor Bickerton referred.

My question is the following: What is the problem that electoral reform is designed to fix? It is a basic question that comes before questions of detail and implementation. I expect you've heard it asked before as you've moved day after day across the country. Judging by the critics of our current voting system and by the terms of reference of this committee, the problem lies with democracy. The current single member plurality system is undemocratic, or at least seriously deficient in its democratic qualities. I want to suggest that our problem in Canada is not with our democracy but with our politics.

“What is the difference”, you may ask, “aren't they related?” Yes, of course they are, and the origins of both can be traced to ancient Greece, but they are not the same thing. Democracy is a condition, a system, a state of things, whereas politics is an art, the “art of the possible”, to quote a famous book by Canadian political scientist James Eayrs. It is a thing in itself, not a subsidiary aspect of something else, such as democracy. This is also true of liberty and representative government. They too are things in themselves and are not necessarily aspects of democracy.

Politics is not practised in all systems. It is not practised in dictatorships, for example, or tyrannies, or absolute monarchies, or oligarchies, because the essence of politics is that it accepts the existence of different truths and therefore of the need for conciliation and deliberation. It's not the best means of achieving a pure ideal untouched by compromise, if that's what you're after, nor of pursuing one's own interests regardless of the interests of others. It's messy, even grubby. Politics in this sense is at the foundation of our public life. Really, it's a precondition of democracy.

Somehow we have managed to lose sight of this in recent years. Instead of seeing politics as one of the most honourable of human activities, many people regard it as a necessary evil, or even an unnecessary evil. On the one hand, many seem to think of politics purely in terms of partisanship. On the other hand, many regard politics, politicians, and government as problems in themselves. They turn to various forms of anti-politics. People speak of “mere politics”, implying that other activities, business being a prime example, are far more important. We see an extreme form of this in the current presidential election in the United States, where the rejection of politics and the civility it entails is made explicit at a high level in a way I've not seen on this continent in my lifetime.

Happily, civility has not disappeared from Canadian public life. I'm not sure why this is so. It may have something to do with culture. Canadians are so nice; when we are not apologizing to people, we are thanking them. It also has to do with our history. We never broke sharply with the mother country, as did the American colonies, creating something entirely new that thereafter could be used to justify various positions that claim to speak for the people. Instead, Canada evolved from colony to independent nationhood. Even this we did in so muddled a manner that even yet we continue to have ties in the form of a common monarch, whose children can evoke the kinds of sentiment that politicians could wish for, as we have seen in the past 10 days.

The continued existence of a monarch also means that in our democracy it is difficult to speak unreservedly of popular sovereignty. The crown is part of our Constitution. Arguably, in Canada, it would be more accurate to speak of parliamentary sovereignty rather than popular sovereignty, but this too has been limited since 1982 by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As Canadian historian William Kilbourn once wrote that Canadians are “a people of the law rather than the prophets.”

Whatever the explanation, civility continues to be highly regarded in our public life, but we should not think we are immune to the American disease. Occasional popular eruptions and overheated expressions of partisanship attest to this. I'm not sure I have any remedy to offer—and we might return to it in the question period—but I think cynicism about politics is a greater threat than cynicism about democracy.

There are other avenues than the electoral system to pursue in search of remedies for the political malaise. An example is the approach to Senate reform recently put forward by former senators Michael Kirby and Hugh Segal in a report for the Public Policy Forum. Kirby and Segal seek to give new life to the original conception of the Senate as an institution of sober second thought that constrains the actions of a majoritarian government. At the same time, they would place limits on the constraints since the Senate is an unelected body.

One way or another, it seems to me that we need to find ways of reviving a genuine politics, a politics that is primarily concerned with negotiation, persuasion, and accommodation, and less with partisanship. Political parties at their best serve as intermediaries between the public and government, a form of civil society, educating and leading their members and, in turn, communicating the preferences and concerns of their members to the legislature and the wider public. Far from being mere weapons of partisanship, they are critical instruments for bringing together men and women of varying views, with the end of arriving at policies and decisions that benefit society as a whole.

Another way of putting all this is to suggest that the committee direct its attention away from the practical consequences of various possible reforms of the electoral system and towards the ends which reform is intended to achieve. The committee's mandate is to study viable alternate voting systems, but the five principles set out in the resolution passed by Parliament could also be directed to a study of political practice. At the very least, I hope you will consider the wider context within which the electoral system operates.

In the second part of my presentation, which as I mentioned earlier is an expansion of the brief I sent in, I set out three ways in which I think proportional representation might make things worse than the way things are now. However, I have to stop there, because my time is up.

Thank you.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

You have about a minute and a half. Do you want to elaborate briefly on those ways you alluded to?

1:55 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Kenneth Dewar

Sure.

I'm a skeptic. I guess that's evident already. I'm both cautious and skeptical about electoral reform. At the centre of the debate about electoral reform are various kinds of proportional representation, particularly mixed member proportional representation.

First, it seems to me that proportional representation in whatever form encourages the proliferation of parties—not necessarily, but it makes it more likely than under the current system. Second, it makes of members of Parliament, at least certain members of Parliament, more representatives of their parties than of their constituents. Third, it reduces the tie which voters have to their district and which MPs have to their district.

It's commonly said, and my colleague has referred to it, that under the single plurality vote system, votes are wasted and votes don't count. I would just like to say that I've wasted my vote by this standard, that is, if my candidate hasn't won, for most of my adult life. I've never thought of it as wasted, because elections, in my view, are competitive struggles for power. That doesn't make them horse races, but it does mean that people compete with each other for the support of their electors in a particular community.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Professor.

I think we have a lot of food for thought today, and two fairly philosophical presentations. I'm sure there will be many questions to probe the essence of your respective points of view.

We'll start with Mr. DeCourcey for five minutes, please.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you, everyone, for being here. It's a pleasure to be recharged and joining all my colleagues around the table in Atlantic Canada and everybody here in my corner of the country. What a wonderful view we have. It's certainly the best room that we've sat in over the course of these three weeks. I also note the presence of some fellow alumni of Mount Saint Vincent University here today.

Thank you all for being here.

Professor Bickerton, you not so subtly suggested to us that now is the time to move ahead with electoral reform, to propose a system and approach that meets the five principles laid out in our mandate. If you'll allow me to put you on the spot, what system, in your mind, might that be?

2 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

My personal preference is MMP. I think it's worked very well in other jurisdictions like Germany, Scotland, and New Zealand. I think it offers Canada both the benefits of first past the post and what we're lacking right now, which is a more proportional system. I think there are various things you can do with MMP to refine it to cater to Canada's specific circumstances, but if it were up to me, I would probably move in that direction. Most of the special commissions on electoral reform have ended up there in the end.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

In your mind, what might that look like in Atlantic Canada? What we've received as advice is to look at an MMP system almost as 10 different provincial systems of some form of proportionality. That's for any form of PR. What might that look like in a region that has a smaller population?

2 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

Let's take Nova Scotia as an example. I would think that it would form one region, so we would have a reduced number of single member seats. Instead of two seats for Cape Breton, perhaps there would be one MP representing Cape Breton in a single member constituency. As for seats, you would use the remainder of the seats for Nova Scotia as top-up seats, and the MPs would be Nova Scotia MPs representing the region of Nova Scotia. That would allow for proportionality in the end.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Would you see that seat in Cape Breton, those votes, contributing towards the total proportionality, and then a top-up member would still have—

2 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

There would be two. In the MMP system you have two votes, so one would be for your local representative and one would be for a regional MP.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

We had a presentation in Edmonton a few weeks ago on a system called dual member proportional, whereby you would effectively cut the number of seats in half—you would double them—so contiguous ridings would turn into one larger riding and you would vote for a party that would run one or two candidates. The candidate from the party with the most votes in that riding would get selected, and then the other seat in various districts would be topped up based on party vote.

The presentation took Atlantic Canada as one whole region. Do you think that sort of approach would be palatable?

2 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

I'm not sure Atlantic Canadians would be very happy about that approach. It sounds like something that was devised elsewhere.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

That was my initial reaction as well.

2 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

Right. I think you'd encounter quite a bit of resistance to that in Atlantic Canada. Atlantic Canada is a very artificial construction, remember. It doesn't really exist as a region, the Maritimes perhaps more so; at least there's historical resonance for that identity. But I think provincial identities are so strong that it would be difficult to erase them when thinking about regional representation. I think it's possible to do it without resorting to lumping all Atlantic Canadians together into one region.

I would be happy with any system that produced greater proportionality of result, but I don't think you need to resort to this particular device.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Are you an advocate for an open or closed list?

2 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

James Bickerton

I'm an advocate for an open list. I think there's no reason not to allow voters to choose between party candidates. Some think that this would generate competition within political parties between their candidates. Yes, it would, but from a voter perspective and from a representation perspective, I don't think that would be a bad thing.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Matt DeCourcey Liberal Fredericton, NB

Great.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thanks very much.

We'll go to Mr. Richards.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I appreciate your both being here. It was a very thoughtful, engaging, and interesting presentation, so thank you for that.

I have a couple of questions. The first one is for both of you.

I think it was you, Professor Bickerton, who mentioned that one thing that often leads to a disengagement in politics or in voting is cynicism about politicians and the political process in general. It's one of those things. This is a very important decision, obviously, that affects very fundamental aspects of our democracy. I think that citizens would expect that this is something that isn't going to be decided just by politicians or political parties. When things like that happen, when we proceed to make decisions such as this one without proper engagement or consultation, it feeds that cynicism. What are your thoughts on that?

I and others in the official opposition have called for a referendum before any changes are made. I would love to hear your thoughts on whether you think some kind of a broader consultation with the public, including a referendum, would be advisable prior to undertaking a significant reform such as this one.

I would love to hear both of your comments.

2:05 p.m.

Professor, As an Individual

Kenneth Dewar

I'm actually not sure that a referendum is necessary on this issue.

I noted that one of your previous witnesses argued—assuming there was a new system proposed by this committee—that since something like MMP would alter, as I understood him, the way in which the Governor General would receive advice about forming a government, it would touch on the Constitution and that therefore this is in fact a constitutional issue.

Although he was making this argument—I'm embarrassed to say that I don't remember his name—he wasn't concluding from it that there needed to be a referendum. He was concluding, on the contrary, that there ought to be an election. If this were referred back to the House and the government were to take up whatever the recommendation was, it would be an occasion for further debate in an election rather than a referendum.

It was interesting to me, though.... Again, I think this is a question that is within the jurisdiction of Parliament to come up with. Here I'm perhaps going beyond my expertise, but we have changed the electoral system in the past. We have introduced the secret ballot. We have widened the franchise. We have done those kinds of things, and we've done them by acts of Parliament.