Evidence of meeting #4 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A video is available from Parliament.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I can share with the committee what running a referendum entails for Elections Canada.
Conservative
Liberal
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Mayrand, gentlemen, thank you for joining us today.
We, in the NDP, have always been in favour of changing the voting system, so we were very glad when this committee was finally created. We are also very glad that we managed to change the committee's makeup, although it did take a while for the committee to get down to work. Today, we are seeing the effects of that delay.
You said that, under the current regime, the redistribution exercise normally takes at least 26 months, when it's done after the census to take into account demographic changes and the like.
In this case, however, we are dealing with much broader and more comprehensive changes to the voting system. Let's say we opted for a mixed system, similar to that in Germany, where people have to cast votes on two separate ballots and a list system is used. If regional or provincial compensatory measures were needed, would the current 26-month time frame you mentioned be too short?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
If we go by the last electoral boundary redistribution, which wasn't all that long ago, the exercise should take between 24 and 26 months. That's how long it took the last time. Keep in mind that, back then, 30 ridings were added and, as a result, the commissions asked for time extensions, which were allowed under the act.
Without a fairly detailed scenario, it's hard for me to say whether it would take 22, 24 or 26 months. I would be misleading you if I were to give you an answer.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
It's just that the 26 months takes us to August 2017. That's soon.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Yes, just in time for the election. They're fairly tight time frames. Bear in mind that the last redistribution was based on a timeline that had been compressed under the act just before the redistribution process began.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
There is another issue I'd like to discuss.
The current first-past-the-post system leads to fairly significant distortions between the percentage of votes cast and the percentages of party seat counts. We've even seen the party with the most votes in the country losing the election, and that, in and of itself, makes no sense.
Many Canadians feel their vote doesn't matter and wonder why they should bother voting. They assume that either the Liberal or the Conservative candidate will win in their riding. There's no way to apply a compensatory measure to an individual's ballot in order to achieve more proportional representation.
Would you say that hinders voter turnout? Do you think that might deter voters who believe their vote won't matter?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
After every election, we study voter turnout. In fact, I can make those studies available to the committee, if you'd like. We examine the circumstances of those who did not vote in an effort to understand why they decided not to. Three broad categories usually emerge.
First, about 40% of people tell us they didn't vote owing to various barriers. They weren't available, they weren't in their riding and couldn't make it to the appropriate location to vote that day, and so forth.
Second, 45% of people tell us they don't care about politics. They don't think their vote will necessarily count.
Third, about 8% of people report not voting for procedural reasons, such as the complexity of the voter registration process.
These are longitudinal studies that are published, so they are available.
NDP
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Over the past 30 years, many western jurisdictions have changed their voting systems. In some cases, they were countries, such as New Zealand, and in other cases, they were regional parliaments, such as in Scotland and Wales.
Are you aware of any countries comparable to Canada, in terms of size and tradition, that replaced their voting system with the first-past-the-post system?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Not to my knowledge, but I'm not claiming to be familiar with every voting system in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if there were new democracies that had opted for the first-past-the-post system.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
You said new democracies, but their traditions wouldn't necessarily be comparable to Canada's.
Thank you.
Liberal
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Mayrand, Mr. Roussel, and Mr. Perrault, welcome to the committee. Thank you for providing a document with such clear information. It basically summarizes the concerns you have from a technical standpoint, concerns I share.
My question has two parts. First, I'd like you to elaborate on the political financing regime.
The government wants to put a new voting system in place. Some of those here already have a preference for a mixed member proportional system to improve representation and the plurality of votes of the various parties. Government financing doesn't exist currently.
In light of the Figueroa decision, do you not think it would be a serious injustice if we didn't restore the capacity of political parties to assert their voice in time for the next election? Do you not think we would be failing to ensure all parties enjoyed a minimum level of fairness at the starting gate, as far as the democratic process was concerned?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I believe political financing falls under the authority of various committees and Parliament, itself. Many debates on the subject have taken place over the years. The point I was trying to make was the importance of keeping in mind that changing the system would likely have repercussions on the organization of political parties, by riding and by region, perhaps, and that the regime wasn't adapted to such changes. It will be important to determine those potential repercussions.
For example, will it be necessary to revise the spending limits? Under the proposed system, the answer could be yes or no. I think those factors need to be considered. If there are candidates on the lists, how are they going to campaign? What type of campaign will they run? What spending limits will they be subject to? Will they be different from those imposed on the parties? Those are the kinds of questions that will need to be considered, in my view.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
You said you hoped the committee would provide you with clear direction when it came to online voting. I'd like you to elaborate on that.
What kinds of problems do you anticipate, as compared with traditional voting? Casting a vote is a solemn event that usually takes place behind a voting screen. In that sense, is Internet voting problematic in your mind? Have you given it some thought?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's quite a debate. I'd be glad to provide the committee with our studies on the subject. Technology changes quickly, but a few years ago, we did conduct some rather in-depth studies on the issues associated with online voting.
That said, I think it's important to take into account considerations such as social acceptability, security, and vulnerability, of course. Eventually, it will be necessary to set the parameters. One of the things that will have to be determined is whether online voting can take place at any computer or whether the process has to be supervised. Currently, voting is supervised. Certain details will need to be examined, so it may be useful to start defining those issues.
As I mentioned, our regime already allows for voting by mail, so that's an unsupervised method of voting. It's important to examine whether the risks associated with online voting are greater than with voting by mail and whether those risks can be mitigated. Those are the kinds of issues I would like some direction on.
In Canada right now, municipalities are making a lot of headway when it comes to online voting, but that isn't the case at the provincial or federal levels. Although studies have been done, no new initiatives have really emerged. It's a question that's been pushed into the public domain, and I think everyone is waiting for some guidance before moving forward in a particular direction and actually piloting an online voting system. I think we can all agree it isn't necessary to have a universal approach from day one.
Bloc
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Mr. Chair, would you mind letting us know when we have a minute left? That would be helpful.
