Evidence of meeting #15 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kyoto.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Johanne Gélinas  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Richard Arseneault  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
David McBain  Director, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Kim Leach  Director, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Good morning, everybody.

I would like to call the meeting to order. Mr. Mills will not be in today, so I will be chairing the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 32(5), we have “Report 2006 of the Commission of the Environment and Sustainable Development”, which was referred to the committee on September 28, 2006.

Our witness today is from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Ms. Johanne Gélinas.

You have ten minutes to speak before the committee.

9 a.m.

Johanne Gélinas Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My opening statement is a little longer than usual, so if you don't mind, I will walk you through this year's report.

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to appear to discuss my sixth report as Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. I am accompanied by Neil Maxwell, Richard Arseneault, David McBain and Kim Leach.

This report is the fruit of 18 months of work. It deals mostly with the federal government's approach to climate change covering up to mid-June 2006. In the course of our audit work, we have tried to answer three basic questions. Is Canada on track to meet its emission reduction obligations? Is Canada ready to adapt to the impact of climate change? Is the government organized and managing well?

The answer is no to all three questions. It has become more and more obvious that Canada cannot meet its Kyoto Protocol commitments to reduce greenhouse gas. In fact, instead of decreasing, greenhouse gas emissions in Canada have increased by 27 per cent since 1990.

Let me walk you through each of the five chapters of my report.

Chapter 1 is “Managing the Federal Approach to Climate Change”.

Chapter 1 addresses how the federal government is organized to manage its climate change activities, whether it is able to report the cost and results of its efforts, and on what basis it developed key targets for reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. It also addresses new tools the government has chosen to help achieve its climate change objectives: a domestic system of trading greenhouse gas emissions; and Sustainable Development Technology Canada, a foundation set up to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions through technological innovation.

Government action has not been well organized or well managed. The government has not defined its leadership role, nor has it identified the responsibilities of each department. It has been unable to come up with the basic tools it needs to measure its progress. Even though more than $6 billion in funding has been announced since 1997, the government still has no system to track the spending and results of its climate change activities. In other words, the government has no way of reporting returns on its investment.

Another major problem with the government's approach is its failure to address the biggest greenhouse gas emitters--transportation and heavy industry--which together represent the lion's share of all gas emissions in Canada.

In the transportation sector, which produces 25% of all gas emissions, the only well-defined measure in place is a voluntary agreement with the car industry to reduce emissions by 5.3 megatonnes by 2010, which is only 2% of the overall reduction needed to meet the Kyoto commitment. In addition, we found that the agreement falls short in a few key areas for voluntary agreements, chiefly, the lack of third-party, independent verification of the model, data, and results that will be used to determine progress.

As for the industry sector, which is responsible for 53% of all emissions, the government has steadily, since 2002, lowered greenhouse gas reduction targets. The reduction now expected from that sector could be only 30 million tonnes of the total expected 270 megatonnes in reductions needed to meet Kyoto commitments. In other words, according to the data we collected during this year's audit, the two sectors responsible for 78% of all of Canada's emissions could contribute only about 20% of the expected emission reductions. Even if the proposed measures are implemented, they will only, at best, slow down the growth in greenhouse gas emissions, not reduce them.

The two principal tools for reducing emissions--the system of large final emitters and the national emissions trading system--are still under construction after more than four years. Problems plaguing system development and the emissions trading system could end up costing taxpayers a lot of money. It is unclear whether and how the government will move forward with the key pieces of the previous plan--the large final emitters system, the emissions trading system, the climate fund, and the offset system.

Chapter 2 is called “Adapting to the Impacts of Climate Change”.

Chapter 2 deals with adaptation — that is, helping Canadians cope with the impact of climate change. Canadians have to be ready to face the spread of pest and diseases, more frequent droughts in the Prairies, and longer and more frequent heat waves and smog alerts.

Unfortunately, we found that adaptation is where the efforts of the government were especially disappointing. Despite commitments to take action going back to 1992, there is no federal strategy to specify how the effects of the changing climate would be managed. A strategy would also specify which department would do what and how decision makers would have access to critical climate information.

For example, new data on the effects of heavy rains could point to a need for changes in the design of storm sewers. The failure to make significant progress on adaptation efforts risks Canadian social and economic wellbeing.

Chapter 3 is “Reducing Greenhouse Gases Emitted During Energy Production and Consumption”.

Chapter 3 looks at three Natural Resources Canada programs that each received $100 million or more to reduce greenhouse gases emitted during energy production and consumption: the wind power production incentive for renewable energy; the EnerGuide for existing houses program for energy efficiency, which was abolished in May 2006; and the ethanol expansion program for renewable fuels.

We found that while these programs yielded the results, it was difficult to assess whether they reduced emissions as planned because their targets were unclear. There was also limited reporting of the results that these programs achieved with the money spent.

We expected Natural Resources Canada to tell Canadians how successful the programs were at reducing greenhouse gases, but with unclear targets and inconsistent public reporting, we wonder how parliamentarians could assess whether these programs are working.

Chapter 3 also looked at the federal efforts to tackle emissions produced by the oil and gas industry. We found that in its battle with climate change, the federal government has not taken into account the unprecedented boom in that sector. Emissions resulting from the increased exploitation of the oil sands could double by 2015, cancelling out any other efforts to reduce greenhouse gases.

Chapter 4, entitled “Sustainable Development Strategies“, concerns sustainable development strategies, which the federal government sees as one of the most important tools for achieving sustainable development.

Our findings this year represent good news, to a degree. In three quarters of the cases we examined, departments are making satisfactory progress on their strategy commitments. Where we found departments making unsatisfactory progress, poor management systems were usually to blame. It is troubling that, after 10 years of experience, some departments are far from making progress.

The government still has not met its long standing commitment to develop an overall environment and sustainable development plan, most recently promised for mid-2006. Your committee may wish to ask the government why the commitment has not been honoured.

Lastly, I would like to turn to chapter 5, which deals with environmental petitions.

Chapter 5 contains two parts: the annual report on petitions and the results of an audit we conducted on a commitment made by NRCan, Environment Canada, and Public Works and Government Services Canada to purchase 20% of their power from green sources by 2006.

It is interesting to note that increasingly Canadians are raising the issues of climate change and air quality in environmental petitions. Canadians are informed and concerned about climate change.

Most responses addressed the questions raised; some did not. An example of a response that did not address the questions posed is that of Finance Canada to Petition 158 concerning subsidies to the oil and gas industry and federal efforts to address climate change. Your committee may wish to get Finance Canada to clearly explain the extent to which the sector is subsidized.

We found that the government has not been able to deliver on its commitment to buy 20% of its power from green sources by 2006, as it committed to do in response to a petition in 2002. As a result, it has not been contributing as expected to greenhouse gas reductions in Canada.

At the end of our audit, my conclusion is this: the federal government has done too little and acted too slowly in Canada's commitments to address the challenge of climate change.

The government must redouble its efforts. I have identified five areas that I believe are crucial: provide sustained leadership; integrate energy and climate change; develop a plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions; push ahead with adaptation; and assure governance and accountability.

Each area is important but the call for leadership by the federal government applies to them all.

I believe that there is an important opportunity for parliamentarians to pursue the concerns I have raised in my report. Clearly there are many issues that government officials need to explain, among them: what progress is being made in developing an effective system for collecting and reporting information on expenditures and results? How will departmental roles and responsibilities be clarified, and what mechanisms to coordinate federal activities will be put in place? What was learned during the Treasury Board-led review on climate change programs and, how has it been shared and used? How would departments go about clarifying what they expect to achieve with their emission reduction programs and how actual results will be reported?

The federal government has accepted all of my recommendations. Therefore, I expect the government's new plan to spell out clearly how these recommendations will be taken into account. So when the new climate change plan is available, parliamentarians will be able to see how the government has responded to the specific recommendations made in my report, and the five areas identified as crucial to future progress.

Mr. Chair, that completes my opening statement. My colleagues and I would be happy to respond to your questions.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

Now we go to the first round of questions.

Mr. Godfrey, you have ten minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

It's good to see you, Commissioner--

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair. My apologies. I have a quick question.

Normally the first round is ten minutes and normally everyone does not get a chance to ask questions with that. Could we have unanimous consent for a five-minute round throughout the whole meeting today? That way everybody is going to get a chance. Would that be okay?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mario Silva

It seems there is no agreement, so we'll go with the ten minutes.

Mr. Godfrey, you have ten minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Commissioner, I was at your press conference, and I'm glad to see you here again today. I remember at your press conference your conclusion was that the government urgently needs a credible, clear plan to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions with realistic short- and long-term goals. You then suggested questions government officials need to answer, that we need to develop a robust system for collecting and reporting information on expenditure and results. I want to try an idea out to see whether you think this would get us part of the way to what you were proposing.

Would it be useful if every year the Minister of the Environment had to come up with a climate change plan that would report, as you have asked, on such things as what measures have been taken to meet our obligations under Kyoto concerning emission limits--market-based mechanisms, spending and fiscal measures--and the date those are supposed to come into force; the amount of greenhouse gas emissions that would be expected to come from each of those; and what we did last year and and how we're meeting that standard?

I wonder if that would be helpful.

9:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

It was already a commitment made a couple of years ago. I have it in my report that the last update on what was happening on this file was in 2003. As to the commitment, my colleague can probably say exactly what it was. But it was clear that the government should have come before parliamentarians and Canadians on a regular basis, and I thought it was every two years, to report on progress made, how much money was spent, and so on. We were told in the course of this audit that at best, Canadians will have an update by 2008. This is certainly quite a long period to wait to know what is going on, and, if there is a need for adjustment, to adjust.

If I may add one thing, I will say it is also the committee's prerogative to ask for a regular update on what is going on. I know in the past my colleague and I have been able to work with other committees, on pesticides, for example, and make sure that twice a year the agency was testifying before the committee and giving an update on certain things they were supposed to do. Something similar could take place here.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

The sort of system I've described would be helpful to produce a greater degree of accountability on an annual basis. It would be helpful?

9:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

It's more than helpful; for me, it's part of basic good management.

October 3rd, 2006 / 9:15 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

That's great to hear, because tomorrow night we're going to be voting on such an idea, Bill C-288, proposed by my friend, Pablo Rodriguez, to ensure we meet our global climate change obligations under Kyoto. If the bill passes, we'll be debating it here, but it's good to hear the principles will be extremely useful.

I'd like to move on to the issue you alluded to in your remarks in the press conference and during your report, the whole question of short-term and long-term goals. When you talk about short-term goals, in order to be effective, based on your experience with this audit, how short are short-term goals? Are they annual? Are they biennial? What's the practical ideal? Let me put it that way.

9:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

When we were talking about short-term goals, we were thinking of Kyoto, so it was, let's say, 2010-2012. When you look at many of the measures related to technological innovation, for example, that will be put in place, we cannot expect significant progress to be made in the near future, so we have to look long term, and climate change is a long-term issue. But short term, in our mind, was really dealing with the Kyoto commitment.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

So if we're to judge a new plan when it comes forward, we should expect to have some goals that relate to 2010-2012, the same period you were talking about, the first Kyoto implementation period? That would be a reasonable way to measure the success or likelihood of success of any new plan—

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

—because it seems we've been at this quite a while, as you point out, going back to 1998.

Is it your impression we need more consultation with industry and with provinces before we can take action?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

I won't tell you if we need more or less consultation. What I will tell you, though, is that if we want to be up to the task, we need action.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

All right. So consultation is not a substitute for action?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

You're saying that.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

You're not disagreeing. But is it your impression we've had quite a lot of consultation in the past?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

We haven't looked at that at all, so I cannot respond to your question.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Is it your impression that in terms of our ability to get on with the job of reducing greenhouse gases we have sufficient legal tools in place? Or do you think we need new legislation? Does a lack of legislation seem to be a barrier to action?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

We have said the federal government has the power to intervene in that area first. We have also said the federal government has a lot of tools in its tool box, and every tool will have to be used. These still are policy decisions. We have commented on regulations with respect to the LFE system, because a decision had already been made that this should go on.

With respect to that, we have said we don't even have a clue how the system will work, how it will look. We were trying to find information related to the design of the regulation itself and we were not able to find anything. There was a government proposal to move ahead with the LFE system, which is a regulated market-based approach. We are not there to comment if it's the right tool or the wrong tool. We have commented also on the MOU, the voluntary approach with the auto sector. This is a different approach, which is not regulated.

So there's a suite of tools whose merit should be looked at, then policy decisions should be made, and we should move ahead. So one size doesn't fit all. That's the bottom line.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

But under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, we have now put CO2 on schedule 1, something that can be regulated. Does that give us sufficient legal authority to become more action-oriented, should we wish to, or is there anything you've come across that says we need more?

9:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Johanne Gélinas

I don't know. The only thing I can say at this stage is that it will be interesting to get answers from the departments. On the basis of what we have seen on the climate change file, many times decisions were made without sound analyses and good analyses. So in this case, if this is the way to go, as an auditor I will tell the departments to make sure this is based on a good analysis.

9:20 a.m.

Richard Arseneault Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

I want to add that the reason we have such a piece of legislation as the Canadian Environmental Protection Act is to protect our environment, our air, our water, and our land. There are mechanisms in there that the government could use if it wishes to do so, or it can use other tools that it wishes to use to achieve the same results. But the tools exist. In fact, we are looking into doing an audit of smog, because a number of smog substances have been declared toxic under the act. Action has been taken by the federal government over the years, and we want to see what progress has been made.