Evidence of meeting #32 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was standards.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Delores Broten  Senior Policy Advisor, Reach for Unbleached Foundation
Gregory Heming  President, Environmental Education Association of the Yukon
Catherine Cobden  Vice-President, Environment, Forest Products Association of Canada
Cynthia Wright  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment
Paul Glover  Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

If we could begin the committee meeting, I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

Before that, with the members here, we're going to do some planning. If we're going to do this, we'll probably have to get our clerk started on it right away.

As everyone knows, we will have clause-by-clause for Bill C-288 on December 7, and it should be finished on that day.

I'm assuming the motion will be made tomorrow. I have talked to Mr. Rodriguez about it. It will probably go ahead, and we would finish Bill C-288 on December 7. It would leave us with Monday, December 11, Tuesday, December 12, and Thursday, December 14, available next week.

I would propose that Tim work on the report over Christmas, and when we come back, he would then have a report for us to go through, discuss, change, and so on.

The minister has offered to come from 3:30 to 4:30 on December 11. I would propose that we could extend the meeting, because we would be scheduled to talk about interdepartmental cooperation and legislative overlap for CEPA on that day. We would have the minister on the December 11, and we would then go into the regular CEPA committee for our regular session.

I'll finish this, and then you can see the whole plan.

On December 12, which would be a Tuesday, we would do the final round table, which we would schedule. We'd need to get witnesses for it now, because it's only a week away.

For any questions to the international group that were broken up by the fire alarm, we have their testimony. We don't have the questions, but we could take care of those on that date.

On December 14 we would provide our final recommendations to Tim, and he would then have January to work on those. When the committee comes back, he could have a draft report for us, which we could then discuss, of course, before sending it on to the government.

That's a suggestion. It's not a motion or anything. I would need unanimous consent to go ahead with that approach. It would be largely for planning purposes that we could proceed in that way.

Are there any comments? Mr. Silva.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Mr. Chair, first of all, I want to know what happens if in fact Parliament rises on December 8, especially since I keep hearing it might be the case.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Then our plans won't happen.

I'm assuming the calendar shows we're here until December 15. I think we need to plan as if we're going to be here until December 15. We'll get ahead of ourselves, and we'll know exactly what we're doing next week.

Yes, Mr. Bigras.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We have already discussed this, and I would say the same thing today that I said then. I said that there was a strong possibility that the House of Commons would no longer be sitting on December 11 and 12. I remember very clearly that you told me that in your 14 years of political life in the House of Commons, you had never seen the House wrap up its work before the date set on the calendar.

Given that the last opposition day was granted to the Liberal Party of Canada on November 27 and given that last week, we voted on the estimates up until 9:00 or 10:00 P.M., I think that it is perfectly likely that the House of Commons will rise before the date set out on the calendar.

The date of December 12, the date Bill C-288 is to be referred back to the House, is therefore unsure, given that the House might have risen by then.

I would ask you to take that into consideration in the discussion of that issue.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Well, my only reply would be that Bill C-288 is of course going to be completed, clause-by-clause, most likely on December 7. It can then be reported back to the House.

At this point, I think we have to assume we're here until the 15th. I don't know what else to do. I have no inside knowledge that we won't be here.

For our final round table, it seems to me that if we're going to have a good representation of people testify before us, we need to invite them this week. We can't wait to see what happens on Friday in order to do that. I'm only saying this would allow us to plan.

Mr. Warawa.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think that's a good suggestion.

If the House should rise early, then we won't be meeting, but I think we will be sitting. I think it would be good, if possible, to finish CEPA so that it would give Tim time over some weeks of December and January to work on that report instead of waiting until February. I think it's an excellent idea, and I'd be willing to meet for extra hours, if necessary, so that we could finish up CEPA before the recess. I think it's a good plan.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I would think, in terms of extra hours, that December 11—

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I absolutely agree with my colleague's comment. Nor that anything prevents us from meeting during the month of January. That could easily happen. I would remind you, in any event, that nothing prevents a legislative committee from meeting during the month of January. I know that is probably what the government will suggest for Bill C-30. If we are going to review Bill C-30, then nothing prevents us from considering the Canadian Environmental Protection Act during the month of January.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Warawa.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

You're quite right, but there's also nothing preventing us--unless the committee doesn't want to deal with CEPA--from dealing with it this week and next. We are very close to completing it, so why would we want to delay? I think if it's in our powers--and hopefully wishes--to deal with it now before the Christmas break, I think it would be a good use of staff time too.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Warawa, we're not completing it. We're suggesting that this would allow our researchers to come up with a preliminary proposal and recommendations. We would then come back and go through it in depth and could make changes and so on. It's just that we need to know now.

Mr. Cullen, just to quickly bring you up to date, 3:30 to 4:30 on December 11--we're talking about next Monday--the minister is available to come. I'm proposing that we then carry on, on that day, with our regular CEPA meeting and that we extend it by one hour, so that we would then go from 4:30 until 6:30 if necessary. We would then, on Tuesday, the 12th, have our final round table, into which we'd have to bring a group that would represent what we've heard. And then on Thursday the 14th, we would have our meeting to wrap up our directions to Tim, as to the direction he should go. That would let them work on it over the break, and when we came back, we would have those recommendations, that report, which we could then start to work on.

I'm assuming we'll be finished Bill C-288 on the 7th--it can be reported back on then--and we can then carry on for our next week with getting the final report begun for CEPA.

I need unanimous consent in order to tell our clerk that's what we're going to do, and then he can proceed to set up that round table, as our big concern is getting the round table set up.

December 4th, 2006 / 3:40 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Just so I properly understand your summation, Chair, you're essentially only asking for another hour in next week's meeting.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Yes, it would be an hour next week of extra time. That way we would get the minister in, we would get CEPA to a point where our researchers could work on it, and then we would come back in January to look at the beginning of the report.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

It seems reasonable, unless there are some serious concerns with that. It seems fine by me.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Again, this could all be for naught if in fact the House doesn't sit next week, but we have to assume it will. So obviously that could change or we could all come back, as Mr. Bigras says.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Another point, Mr. Chair, is that the minister is available on December 11, as you pointed out, from 3:30 to 4:30. She's also available on December 14 from 11 a.m. to 12 noon, whichever works the best.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Sure.

I don't know if you all picked that up, but she is available as well on Thursday the 14th for an hour at the end.

Yes.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Personally, I think there's too much risk. If we've got a date and we've got a time, let's have the minister before us.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

That was my feeling, that we could do it next Monday and move forward.

Do I have consent on that?

That's carried.

That's the plan, then, and we'll carry on.

Now I'll officially welcome our guests. I'm sorry for that, but planning is a part of this process, as you can imagine.

We will allow you 10 minutes each. I have a little grey box here that keeps us on schedule. I'd ask each of you to make a succinct presentation of 10 minutes, and then our panel members will have a chance to ask you questions and go from there.

I welcome Ms. Wright and Mr. Glover again, from Environment Canada and Health Canada, to interject where necessary.

If we could begin, we'll go in the order here, with Dolores Broten from Reach for Unbleached Foundation, please.

3:40 p.m.

Delores Broten Senior Policy Advisor, Reach for Unbleached Foundation

Thank you very much for this chance to present to your committee.

I have a written presentation that has been sent for translation. It will be along, I guess, in a week or two. I apologize that I couldn't translate it myself.

I'm going to be talking on this issue of government-to-government cooperation. To illustrate the conclusions of my organization, we're going to focus on the whole process in relation to the Canadian—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Excuse me. It has been translated, and it has been communicated to all the members.

3:40 p.m.

Senior Policy Advisor, Reach for Unbleached Foundation

Delores Broten

Oh, great. That's good.

I'm going to focus on the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment's Canada-wide standard for dioxins. But that is only as an illustration of my point. The same kinds of points could be made about other subjects that are subject to Canada-wide standards, such as ozone or particulate or mercury, or even the CCME guidelines for water quality or risk assessment to determine if a substance is CEPA-toxic.

My illustration using dioxin is about a process I am having some trouble with. I think the problems are endemic to a baroque structure of committees and internecine power struggles that allow government to abdicate its responsibility to protect human health and the environment.

The main conclusions--the take-away messages--are, first of all, that we don't believe CEPA 1999 needs substantive revision. We believe the law is capable of dealing with Canada's environmental problems. There may be the odd fix required, but there's nothing really wrong with CEPA.

The problem lies in the relationship between the federal and provincial governments. Much time and money is being wasted in multi-stakeholder, interjurisdictional consultations that merely confuse the lines of accountability. There is a culture of inadequacy in the bureaucracy among politicians and the ministers who do not have the will to make CEPA live up to its potential to protect the environment and Canadians' health.

Finally, despite all of that, I would say that we do need a mechanism to reactivate the Canada-wide standards system in the event of significant changes, such as technological improvements for pollution prevention, new industrial developments that will change pollution levels, or new science. That mechanism doesn't seem to exist now. I'm not sure you have to rewrite CEPA in order to have that mechanism; you might just need to redesign the process.

My organization, Reach for Unbleached, is a national foundation. It is a Canadian registered charity with a focus on consumer education and pulp mill monitoring. We work for a sustainable pulp and paper industry by making pulp mills clean up and by promoting clean, environmentally preferable paper. Over the last decade and a half, we have worked in alliance with pulp unions, first nations, international environmental organizations such as Greenpeace, and citizens groups in most of the forest towns of British Columbia.

We participated as a member of the Canadian delegation in the negotiation of the United Nations treaty on persistent organic pollutants, the POPs treaty, and we've worked on numerous Environment Canada and British Columbia toxics-related processes. Our work is cited by grassroots campaigns all over the world.

I'm also the editor of the Watershed Sentinel news magazine, which is in touch with dozens, if not hundreds, of other grassroots organizations across the country.

It's a very rare opportunity for a community-based activist to have this chance to present our comments on how we see the workings of government's structure for the control of toxics and to tell you how we ENGOs have to deal with it. We're not offering a legal viewpoint; we're offering a layperson's understanding of toxicology, bureaucracy, and the technology of pulp and paper production.

The system is not broken, but the hands on the levers need to do more than a little heavy lifting. Considerable taxpayer money, and even more volunteer time, is being wasted in these consultations that do not remain focused and do not deliver the pollution prevention Canadians expect. These processes serve to confuse the lines of accountability. In British Columbia, we call this “talk and log”, where we sit and negotiate and the trees are falling outside the window while we talk. That's exactly what's going on with toxics policy in this country.

This is not mandated by CEPA 1999; it's the way it's been interpreted by the governments.

Let me tell you a little bit about myself, then you'll sort of see why I'm coming to these conclusions. My home is on a small island off the coast of British Columbia. I moved there in 1987 to live a quiet rural life. My partner and I were growing our own food and were working as clam diggers to earn a little extra money. Our island, having finished logging its old growth forest, was and is heavily concentrated on family operations growing oysters for the export market, but in about 1989, trouble started in paradise.

At that time, fisheries closures were beginning to spread along the coast of British Columbia because of dioxin contamination of the shellfish from chlorine bleaching pulp mills. Eventually about 120,000 hectares of foreshore were closed to crab and shellfish harvesting, of which more than half remains closed to this day.

On our island we were threatened with economic disaster, so we were looking for a solution. That's why the name of my organization is Reach for Unbleached, because if the pulp mills weren't using chlorine to bleach their product, if they were using unbleached or, alternatively, making bleached paper, there wouldn't be any dioxin and then our oyster fishery would be okay. So that's where we came from.

I don't have time to take you through the whole process of multi-stakeholder meetings, scientific twists and turns, market scares, job blackmail, the harmonization agreement with the Province of B.C.--which wasn't very harmonious, and the federal and provincial governments never renewed it--and then lots of B.C. elections, although the B.C. elections tend to be a lot more fun than the rest of it.

In summary, the federal government declared dioxin CEPA-toxic and subject to virtual elimination. It then acted to stop the outpouring of dioxin by using a regulation under the Fisheries Act that prohibited the mills from putting dioxin out in their effluent. It was a strict command and control regulation, and it worked. Dioxin levels in effluent plummeted.

In my paper, there's a description of dioxin's health impacts, the fact that it's slated for international ban under the POPs treaty, etc., but I'm going to skip that in the interest of time.

However, given all of those things, including the EPA's science reassessment of dioxin's health impacts at very, very low levels, it's not too surprising that Canada continued with its dioxin elimination program by developing Canada-wide standards. What is surprising, given the elimination mantra under which the CWS was justified, is that the process focused only on airborne emissions of dioxin, not on the creation of dioxin. This is a directive of the national advisory committee that seemed absolutely impossible to change when we got down to discussing the nuts and bolts of dioxin production.

British Columbia was given the lead as champion of the dioxin Canada-wide standard, and our organization and numerous others from coastal communities followed through on the process. Pulp mills were burning chips from wood that had been towed in the ocean. By being in the ocean, the wood soaked up salt, then when they burned those chips they made dioxin. That's the nub of the problem, but the really important part is that the Canada-wide standard was only looking at the airborne emissions instead of at the creation of dioxin. Most of that dioxin actually goes into landfill, rather than up the stack and out into the air.

However, we did manage to get pollution prevention written into the Canada-wide standard after about two years of committee infighting. Unfortunately, the pollution prevention turned into a bit of a bad joke. Many expensive and time-consuming meetings later, to which we coastal environmentalists donated our time, consultants' reports proved to almost everyone's satisfaction that it was far too expensive to consider taking the logs out of the salt water, that the salt could not be washed out of the wood chips, and that it was okay, because the dioxin was sealed away forever in the pulp mills' landfills.

Many of these landfills have no liners. In cases where there have been tests, dioxin frequently shows up in the leachate and in the groundwater around the landfills. In any event, the best of these landfills is only built for a hundred-year weather event, and I think we're looking at a little more than that these days.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Ms. Broten, I don't want to interrupt, but you are over your time. Could you wrap up? You will get an opportunity, with the questions, to get everything in.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Policy Advisor, Reach for Unbleached Foundation

Delores Broten

Okay.

Basically, the problem is that in the meantime the pulp and paper company has discovered a way to wash the wood chips to get the salt out of the wood chips. That is the pollution prevention that we were looking for. But there is no way to go back and get the Canada-wide standard to kick in again, because the process is over. B.C. has folded up its tent and gone home, and we can't find anyone in the federal government to act on this without going to the environment commissioner and laying a complaint or something. On top of this, we found new ways of monitoring for that dioxin, and although the provincial government is interested, the federal government isn't interested.

So this is the frustration. It's that lack of clear lines of responsibility and accountability because of the way the federal and provincial governments pass things back and forth to each other. I think that's at the root of why CEPA is not effective in terms of its toxic control issues.

Thank you. I'll leave it at that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you, Ms. Broten. Certainly afterwards you and I can talk about the petition process through the environment commissioner.

We will go on. Mr. Heming, you have the floor.