Evidence of meeting #32 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was standards.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Delores Broten  Senior Policy Advisor, Reach for Unbleached Foundation
Gregory Heming  President, Environmental Education Association of the Yukon
Catherine Cobden  Vice-President, Environment, Forest Products Association of Canada
Cynthia Wright  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment
Paul Glover  Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health

3:55 p.m.

Dr. Gregory Heming President, Environmental Education Association of the Yukon

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Clerk, for inviting me here this afternoon. My name is Dr. Gregory Heming, and I come from a small town, Haines Junction, in the Yukon.

By way of introduction, I would like to say that by profession I am a human ecologist. I study the way humans interact with systems natural, environmental, political, economic, social, and cultural. By vocation I am a communitarian, and by that I mean I am one who believes in the value and livability of small rural communities, particularly the one I'm a member of.

Both my interests have convinced me that former Secretary of State (Rural Development) Andy Mitchell was correct when he asserted that rural communities are the future of Canada.

As you know from preliminary correspondence, my remarks to you this afternoon are centred on two core problems, neither of which is written directly into the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. However, I submit to you today that both of these core problems are equally important to the eventual success CEPA may realize in preventing pollution, protecting the environment, protecting human health, and contributing to sustainable development.

Canada's small rural communities are being adversely impacted from the inside by what I call internal disaffection and from the outside by external exploitation. Both disaffection from inside and exploitation from outside begin to occur when communities are unable to supply local needs from local sources.

It is my contention that communities, provinces, territories, and first nations, as they become increasingly dependent on outside sources, centralized governments, and larger and larger corporations for their basic needs, become correspondingly disaffected from our local businesses and our local governments, and most troubling to me, with our own neighbours' civic demeanour.

The Canadian Environmental Protection Act can, if it reconciles many of the criticisms and suggestions that this committee has heard over time, do much to protect us from the negative by-products of a large-scale economy. But even with wholesale refinements and adaptations in how CEPA chooses to regulate and enforce environmental law and corporate responsibility, it will do little to promote an interdependent series of small-scale economies, which would include the likes of family farming, community markets, innovative and productive cottage industries, and community alternate energy capabilities.

Therefore, while CEPA may help us identify and regulate the symptoms of a toxic economy, which does in fact include thousands of bioaccumulative and inherently toxic substances, we cannot expect CEPA to help us treat the root cause of pollution, which is our own inability to distinguish our basic needs from our unnecessary wants. Nor can we expect CEPA to help us redesign our economy so that it may become less exploitive, more authentic, and more local, healthy, and sustainable.

Our present economic model, which demands unlimited economic growth through unlimited consumption, and which we hope to temper with the likes of CEPA, is prejudiced against the small. It has an inherent industrial prejudice against anything rural. It works against family business, competitive business, and small-scale innovation. In fact, it may even be fair to say at the end of the day that it just may be prejudiced against the delicate balance inherent in our natural world.

Because rural folks live in very close proximity to our natural landscape, we understand in ways that others do not that our lives and livelihoods are always a mixture of what is natural and what is fabricated and altered. In short, we understand in rural communities, as few do, that culture can only happen by consuming nature.

As our current economic system continues to pump resources out of the periphery into the centre, from the countryside into the city, from the poor to the rich, as the economy heats up, as it must do in the system that we have, it has become increasingly acceptable to ruin one place for the sake of another.

The key question for community folks and country folks, and ultimately for this committee, is what mixture of nature and culture is acceptable? What mixture of pristine wilderness, resource extraction, automobile pollution, toxic substances, displaced wildlife is acceptable before rural living becomes too much like urban living?

While this committee will likely hear much about a priority substance list, screening level, risk assessments, toxic substance, management policies, and administrative and equivalency agreements—and make no mistake, these are absolutely invaluable to make CEPA effective—we must not allow the particular and overly precise language of experts, of scientists, of lawyers, of lawmakers, to cloud over and obscure the common sense language in which we express many of the common sense Canadian values.

In an attempt to serve this more ordinary approach to pollution protection and environmental protection, in an attempt to prevent small communities from falling in on themselves or from being overridden by external forces that they are incapable of fending off, I would like to put before this committee four notions that just might serve you well when the regulatory and administrative waters of CEPA get choppy. If nothing else, strict adherence to these four notions will give you the philosophical framework, the economic foundation, and the political rationale to think about CEPA in ways that will ensure that our rural communities are indeed the future of Canada.

Number one, Trappist monk Thomas Merton once remarked that, having lost our ability to see life as a whole, to evaluate conduct as a whole, we no longer have any relevant context into which our actions are to be fitted, and therefore, all our actions become erratic, arbitrary, and insignificant. For me, I believe Merton was suggesting that community was the relevant context in which we can somehow begin to see our lives as being less erratic, more sensible, and infinitely more significant.

If CEPA does not tie directly and pragmatically into community life and into rural life, it is not likely to gain the support of the people and therefore will always be seen as one more management regime filtering down and put upon lesser levels of government. CEPA must always ask and always seek to answer one question: what will any proposed regulatory change or innovation do to a particular community? How, we must ask ourselves, will CEPA affect our common unity?

Number two, Daniel Kemmis, the former mayor of Missoula, Montana, in response to his constituents about the heavy hand of federal government, said something that's always impressed me. He said:

It would be an insult to these people to assume that they are incapable of reaching some accommodation among themselves about how to inhabit their own place.

This simple rule of local government can guide this committee as it searches for ways to mould seamless cooperation with provinces, territories, aboriginal people, and ordinary citizens when it comes to implementing CEPA.

Number three, university professor in law Professor Charles Wilkinson once outlined what he called an ethic of place:

An ethic of place respects equally the people of a region and the land, animals, vegetation, water and air. It recognizes that westerners revere their physical surroundings and that they need and deserve a stable, productive economy that is accessible to those with modest incomes. An ethic of place ought to be a shared community value and ought to manifest itself in a dogged determination to treat the environment and its people as equals, to recognize both as sacred, and to insure that all members of the community not just search for but insist upon solutions that fulfill the ethic.

This committee should never forget that pollution prevention, environmental protection, and sustainable development are all tied together--end of story.

Even more specifically and of greater significance is the fact that we must never forget that air, land, water, vegetation, animals, and human civilization are all on an equal footing. The cultural and economic systems that emerge from these natural systems must be accessible to those with a modest income. This, in fact, may be the premier Canadian value from which everything flows.

Number four, Erica Jong, with clear brevity of thought, gave me great pause once more. Take your life in your own hands, she said, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame.

This committee and all of us in this room can no longer afford to shuffle the entire blame for contaminated water, for smog, climate change, and toxic chemicals solely to either industry or to government. As citizens and consumers, we are ultimately responsible for making healthy choices about our own lives and our own livelihoods.

This committee would be ill-advised to alter or amend CEPA in any way if such alteration or amendment took individual consumers off the hook for their own failings, no matter how innocent. In 1853, just six years prior to when construction began on this original Parliament Building, British poet laureate William Wordsworth penned the following poem:

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
...
For this, for everything we are out of tune;
....

If I can impact upon this committee one single message that must come through clearly in this mandatory five-year review of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, it is this. We cannot continue with our infinite consumption of our finite resources, for if we do, we will most certainly give our hearts away; for if we do, we lay waste our powers and we never get to the bottom of things.

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you, Mr. Heming.

We will go on to Catherine Cobden, please, from the forestry industry.

4:05 p.m.

Catherine Cobden Vice-President, Environment, Forest Products Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let me begin by expressing our industry's appreciation to be addressing the committee on this important and timely examination you're undertaking with respect to the Canadian Environmental Protection Act.

By way of introduction, FPAC is the voice of the Canadian wood, pulp, and paper producers, nationally and internationally, in the areas of government, trade, and environment. Canada's forest industry represents 3% of Canada's GDP and exports over $40 billion of wood, pulp, and paper annually. We're also one of Canada's largest employers, operating in hundreds of communities—mostly rural—and providing nearly 900,000 direct or indirect jobs across the country.

The forest sector has established itself as a leader on environmental issues. The operations have spent over $8 billion on reducing air and water discharges. Our most recent data show that the sector has reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 30% since 1990; at the same time, we have reduced particulate matter by over 60%. We have an equally impressive track record on water, which I won't get into, as time does not permit.

We are very proud of our environmental track record. However, we recognize that the status quo is not good enough. We must do more to continually improve our environmental performance; and to do more, we need creative approaches built upon collaboration and cooperation with stakeholders, as well as federally and provincially. Through mechanisms like our Pulp and Paper Air Quality Forum, we have proven our capacity to work with a broad range of stakeholders in thinking creatively about solutions to very complex and difficult issues in a time of economic crisis for the sector. Indeed, the remarks I'll be making today draw very heavily from the work of that forum, and I look forward to sharing those.

We are a highly regulated sector in many jurisdictions across the country, and consequently we have a significant level of experience with respect to environmental legislation, both federally and provincially. CEPA has a significant impact on our members, particularly now that the Clean Air Act amendments have been included within CEPA.

FPAC would like to focus our comments today on one issue that is of overriding importance to our members, the equivalency provisions within CEPA. As a highly regulated sector, we are particularly sensitive to the increasing regulatory morass and complexity we're facing within Canada's landscape. To be very clear, FPAC does not challenge the federal government's authority to regulate environmental issues, nor do we advocate harmonization with provincial standards. We recognize that the federal government may wish to do more in certain provincial jurisdictions, and we also recognize that the provincial governments do share some of the burden of reaching and eliminating the complex environmental challenges we face.

However, we do advocate very strongly for efficient approaches that eliminate federal and provincial duplication. We firmly believe it is critical that federal and provincial governments work together towards that goal. We suggest that understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the existing provincial regimes is a key step in pursuing federal action. This understanding is certainly a necessary building block for ensuring regulatory gaps are addressed and that duplication is avoided.

CEPA 1999 does provide provisions to allow federal and provincial governments to sign equivalency agreements between them. We fundamentally believe that the original intent of these provisions aimed at simplifying the environmental landscape without weakening environmental performance. However, our experience to date has shown that the provisions, along with their interpretation, are significant barriers to achieving this important goal. I'm sure you're aware that only one province, the Province of Alberta, actually has an agreement in place with the federal government.

In the interest of the committee's time, I do not intend to review all of the legal intricacies of CEPA. I'm sure you're more than intimately familiar with them. I would also like to set aside Bill C-30 for just a moment.

So just in the context of the existing CEPA as it stands, there are two provisions for equivalency, which I think are important to highlight here. One, the provincial regulatory provisions can be deemed equivalent to regulations of the federal government and therefore could be eligible for exemption. Two, these provisions must allow for investigation of alleged offences or what we call the citizens' right to investigate. You need both of these criteria to be in place to get an equivalency agreement.

Bill C-30 proposes amendments to CEPA 1999 in this area, and I implore the committee to take a very close look at those provisions as you undertake your CEPA review.

The proposed Clean Air Act amendments shift away from a very strict regulatory-to-regulatory interpretation or focus toward the more outcomes-based approach, i.e., provisions, the effects of which are equivalent. FPAC strongly believes this is a clear and important step in the right direction, as it adds flexibility to the requirements and should not compromise the quality of the environment. Bill C-30, however, does not modify the “citizens' right to investigate” provisions.

I would like to lead you through a very short example around air quality that highlights the challenges and implications of CEPA 1999 and then also the proposed amendments for Bill C-30.

Based on comprehensive legal analysis, we have several stand-alone legal opinions, as well as consultations with the federal Department of Justice, Environment Canada, and five provincial governments—B.C., Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, and Newfoundland and Labrador. On the potential for an equivalency agreement with provinces for our sector, we have found that only Alberta and Newfoundland and Labrador would be in a position to sign equivalency agreements under CEPA 1999 without tremendous and significant modifications to their existing regulatory regimes. If you add Bill C-30 amendments to this equation, what you get is Alberta, Ontario, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Nova Scotia able to sign equivalency agreements, due to the shift toward the outcomes-based approach that I mentioned earlier.

I would like to note that Quebec, with its very comprehensive regulatory regime—it has a tremendous regulatory regime in place—would still not be able to sign an equivalency agreement. That's given as a result of the lack of “citizens' right to investigate” provisions. Quite frankly, this concerns us greatly.

The following are our recommendations for your consideration. We urge you to remain committed to simplifying the environmental regulatory requirements in Canada by addressing the legislative constraints that prevent the establishment of equivalency agreements. Furthermore, we urge the committee to support the proposed amendments, as they relate to equivalency, that were introduced in Bill C-30. While they do not go far enough, in our opinion, they do move us in the right direction.

As a supplementary to this, we do not know how the committee intends to deal with this, but we believe there would be some inherent value in the committee's coordinating its CEPA review activities and its Bill C-30 activities. I'm sure you have all sorts of thoughts on that, but this is an area that highlights, I think, the value of undertaking that.

We apologize in advance for not having any specific recommendations here, but we would like to ask the committee to undertake a study or further examination of what options may exist to support the citizens' right to investigate in concept. We really believe it's an important concept, but there must be a way to do this while providing flexibility for provincial jurisdictions in terms of this requirement. We haven't yet undertaken our resources to figure that one out. We intend to, and we would like to be able to present the results of that to committee, but we also suggest that you may have some study work or interest to study that particular opportunity.

We request that the committee recommend to the government that it draw on the experience of sectors that have already developed cooperative federal and provincial mechanisms. For example, I did mention the Pulp and Paper Air Quality Forum. For the last two years, we've been rolling up our sleeves with environmental organizations, aboriginals, five provinces, and the federal government, to figure out a path forward on air and climate change that makes sense for all concerned. We really hope those initiatives are not pushed aside with respect to a new approach to air.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my formal remarks. I'd be happy to take any questions that the committee members may have. Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Good. Thank you very much.

Mr. Silva, begin.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to thank the witnesses for coming forward and giving their presentations.

Once again, I would like to state, Mr. Chair, that some of our members of our committee are not present because they're debating Bill C-30. I hope to go back to the House as well to speak on it. But that's the situation we're facing at this very moment, because there was also legislation that was tabled by the government with respect to the Clean Air Act.

I am interested in hearing further from the witnesses, and maybe even from the government staff, on the benefits of the ministers' conferences and how they are in fact able to get to Canada-wide standards. How are they moving forward, and have they been working as of late?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Would you like to direct your question to someone?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Maybe somebody from the department could start off.

4:15 p.m.

Cynthia Wright Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

The latest one that was approved was approved in the middle of October on mercury from coal-fired electricity facilities.

There were six substances originally targeted and about 14 Canada-wide standards developed. They're all beginning to report on how well they've been implemented. So reports are starting to come out now, but I think it's fair to say that many of them have been very successful. Most of them have resulted in changes to provincial permitting processes, various instruments to implement them, and for a number of them you see the attainment of the standards. Benzene was the first to attain the standards. Probably the particulate matter and ozone are the ones where you see less attainment or attraction towards attaining the standards, and I think that's what has prompted Bill C-30.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Glover, I think you have some comments.

December 4th, 2006 / 4:20 p.m.

Paul Glover Director General, Safe Environments Programme, Department of Health

Just briefly, by way of process, because you asked how they worked, one of the things that happens is that, for example, on a health issue, the health scientists will prepare information to advise the committee and the members so that the science doesn't necessarily need to be replicated jurisdiction by jurisdiction. So we'll talk about the health implications and provide advice to them as the Canada-wide standard is developed.

There is definitely a sharing of scientific information, of key questions and answers to those questions, as the standards are developed.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

I should have mentioned also, Mr. Chair, that I will be splitting my time with Lloyd St. Amand. I don't know what time I've used up now.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

You have three minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Okay, I'll take just one more minute.

I think it's very important, when we're dealing with the provinces and the ministers of the provinces, that we do try to get some binding targets in place, because if we as a country are dealing with international partners to try to have a consensus or binding targets, whether it's Kyoto or different agreements, if we can't do that in-house, we lose face when we go out to the international community. So if we are dealing with these very important issues, and environmental standard issues, we need to make sure that we are in fact setting standards across the country. Whether it's our water table or whether it's our air, it goes from one province to another, so it's very important that we have regulations that are common from one part of the country to the other part.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Ms. Broten.

4:20 p.m.

Senior Policy Advisor, Reach for Unbleached Foundation

Delores Broten

We pushed the Canada-wide standard on ozone and on particulate matter. In fact, we went to our own provincial environmental appeal board on that Canada-wide standard, and so on, to the point where the province now includes that standard in its technical assessment when it issues a permit for pollution. They just assess that this will never violate the Canada-wide standard, because it's so generous that any new polluter isn't going to violate it anyway.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. St. Amand.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps this question is to one of the departmental officials, Ms. Wright or Mr. Glover.

I was intrigued by Dr. Heming's comment, and it was pleasing, of course, to hear Andy Mitchell being quoted. He was correct about the rural communities ideally being the future of Canada.

Just briefly by way of preamble, my riding contains Six Nations of the Grand River Territory, which is the most populated first nations community in Canada, with 12,000 people. As you can imagine, with that community being the most populated at 12,000 people, many aboriginal communities are significantly smaller. Your comments, Doctor, certainly speak to the concerns that are felt by aboriginals and, of course, their attachment to the land, their well-documented views about the tugging between nature and culture, and so on.

But I'd like to ask Ms. Wright or Mr. Glover their feelings or any thoughts they have on CEPA. In what fashion, if any, should it be amended to take into account aboriginal concerns and aboriginal issues?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Ms. Wright.

4:20 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cynthia Wright

There is one area that the governments have identified in the issue paper. CEPA is designed as a national piece of legislation to set standards that are the same from coast to coast to coast. First nation groups would fall under those national regulations and standards. But there's another part of CEPA that allows the federal government to set regulations that mimic provincial laws and regulations with respect to environmental protection, and that's part 9 of CEPA. But in the design of part 9, it currently would require that the standard or regulation be the same from coast to coast to coast, and as first nations try to enhance their economy and be competitive against other companies in the same jurisdiction, that may force them to either a higher or a lower standard than companies operating on provincial lands.

So the issue paper is identifying that we think this is an issue the committee should look at, and whether or not there should be more flexibility in CEPA to allow first nations to have standards that are the same as their nearest neighbour.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

If I have any remaining time, I'll give it to Mr. Scarpaleggia, who has at least one question he'd like to ask.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Scarpaleggia, you have about three minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Thank you very much.

Ms. Wright, could you elaborate on this idea that it's difficult to do anything about particulate matter--if I understood correctly--in CEPA and that therefore the government felt that it had to bring in Canada's Clean Air Act? I find that intriguing.

4:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cynthia Wright

No, what I was saying is that it was with respect to the Canada-wide standards. There's probably been less consistent activity across the country in the attainment of the particulate matter and ozone Canada-wide standards. The Canada-wide standards are not all the same. Some of them are very clear, end-of-pipe, if you will--the emissions that are allowed out of stacks. The particulate matter and ozone standards were related to the ambient air quality and therefore required each jurisdiction to put in place certain measures. So for instance, the federal government committed to putting in measures with respect to transportation and fuels and negotiating an agreement with the United States to reduce international sources, and it has largely met its accountabilities.

The federal government also conducted research and technology assessments to see what standards were comparable in other jurisdictions and what could be done under industrial sources. The intent was that the provinces would put in the standards, the regulations, to reduce emissions from each of those industrial sectors. That has been uneven.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Do you mean things like ethanol mandates, for example, in gasoline?

4:25 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cynthia Wright

It is that kind of standard. For instance, it is the release of particulate matter per unit produced or per tonne of emissions from various industrial sectors, and those kinds of standards. So the intent was that provinces would do that. To date, most of the provinces have not done that or have not done that evenly across the country.