Environment Committee on Feb. 26th, 2007

[Morgan Williams]

I have to be really honest and say that I simply couldn't have done the job. It just wouldn't fit me. My background is as a systems ecologist, that's where my PhD is. I've worked in systems thinking in the context of physical resources through to economic constructs and social constructs. It is in fact what keeps me alive. So while I really appreciate and use the power of the audit model, it wouldn't have fit my persona and it simply wouldn't have fit the way we've been contributing from this office.

[Roberta Santi]

In relation to your question about the Auditor General's role as a protector versus being backward-looking in terms of the audit function, I would say it is consistent with the traditional model of agents of Parliament generally in Canada, as they actually focus on compliance with broad policies. The Auditor General acts within a legislative mandate. The Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development actually has a key role with respect to sustainable development strategies and tracking those and reporting on progress against implementation against those.

There is a debate out there too about the extent to which the audit function is only backward-looking. I've been involved in a lot of audits during my public service career with the Auditor General, and while you do look back in terms of what actions have been taken, the recommendations that are put out actually have, very often, a very significant change in terms of how you move forward.

So I don't think it's quite a black and white issue in this application.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Perhaps I can follow up on that.

It's not so much about not having the backward-looking—I shouldn't say that, because an auditor helps us make sure that the foundation that lies below us, what's happened in the past, doesn't get repeated—or that when we look at best practices, we can continue to perform the good stuff. Now, on that foundation, a commissioner can take that information and go forward.

I just don't see it clearly, and maybe you can clarify it for me. Explain to me how the Auditor General's office and a commissioner under the Auditor General can take that information and actually promote the cause or make sure that they are advocates for future promotion of something we want to attain.

[Roberta Santi]

If you're talking about a policy advocate, I think that is one of the issues. There is a tension between policy advocacy and the audit function. I think the Auditor General dealt with that issue when she appeared before the committee recently, and so did the former Auditor General, Mr. Desautels.

From a machinery perspective, I don't have advice on this, because we really have not looked at this in any depth, since it's a very recent issue that developed less than a month ago. I think one of the big questions from a machinery perspective that we do ask when there's a proposal on the table is that the form has to follow the function. So the question is, what do you want? What are you trying to do, and what outcomes are you trying to deal with, and what's your diagnostic of what's not working now? To me, clarity around that then helps you figure out, from a machinery perspective, what are the various technical aspects, or what are the various possibilities from a structural perspective that can make you deliver on this?

So the starting point is this: what's the public policy goal, and what's the definition around advocacy, and what do we mean by that?

I found the testimony of Mr. Williams very interesting, because he described his advocacy role in a pretty interesting way. He said he focuses on tilling before there's actual policy formulation. I think there still is a question about what you mean by advocacy before you can decide how you can best put a form around that.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Santi.

Mr. Harvey, for five minutes.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

First of all, Ms. Adam, I'd like to mention that I'm a member of the Official Languages Committee. When you announced your retirement, I was saddened to see you go. So then, I'm pleased to see you here today.

[Dyane Adam]

I'm here at your invitation.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mention has been made of a commissioner who is truly independent. Do you believe the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development wasn't truly independent?

[Dyane Adam]

I don't know if I can comment, but I do think—and others have mentioned this—that when we talk about independence in this case, we mean independence from the government. Obviously, the position of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development is part of the Office of the Auditor General which, unquestionably, is independent of the government. Consequently, the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development is independent of the government. I believe that's what you were referring to.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

This notion comes up quite regularly. We all know what the word “independence” means to my Bloc colleagues.

That being said, the word has been mentioned often. Everyone is keen about wanting the office to be independent. That's where I was coming from.

[Dyane Adam]

I read a little about the work you are doing. When it comes to independence, we mean the independence of the office holder. I believe that's what you're referring to here and this is something for Parliament to decide. As Ms. Santi so aptly said, it has been proven—and I'm talking about Parliament and lawmakers—that it is possible to create positions of officers of Parliament, such as the position of Commissioner of Official Languages, that have twofold roles. The office of the Commissioner of Official Languages was created nearly forty years ago, really without much of a debate. Successive commissioners assumed office and results were achieved. The Office's mandate was even strengthened. When it comes to the environment, I think it's up to Parliament to decide what is best for Canada.

I'm talking to you as a ordinary citizen, and not as Commissioner. As an ordinary citizen, my message to you is that it is the responsibility of our elected officials to determine what Canadians need. Therefore, that responsibility rests with you.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Williams, you stated that as Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, you are an environmentalist.

Is it absolutely essential that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment be an environmentalist, or can the position also be held by someone who is concerned about industry and the economy? What is the final position on the kind of person who should hold the office of Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment in your country?

[Morgan Williams]

Do you want me to answer that?

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I really hope so.

[Morgan Williams]

The point I'd really make is that I didn't and wouldn't wish to describe myself as an environmentalist. I think that is a term that has all sorts of baggage around it. The role of the office, the role that I and my predecessor have essentially carved out, is a very broad one, which is looking at environmental sustainability in the whole of society, in the whole of the economy. So we do a lot of linking and a lot of thinking more in the sustainable development context. That's certainly what I've done ever since I've been in the office.

You cannot think of the environmental piece without linking it to the rest, as we all understand, but we all know that the bottom line sits in our natural capital systems. That's what we're grappling with, and the biggest expression, of course, is climate change.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

You have five minutes, Mr. Lussier.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

My questions are directed to Mr. Williams. Your position was created in 1986.

At the time, what model served as the inspiration for creating the position of Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment?

[Morgan Williams]

The fundamental model that was the starting point was our ombudsman's office. New Zealand was one of the first in the world to create a citizens' ombudsman. So that's where the fundamental model came from, and that's what we built the functions of this current office on, which, as I've said, haven't changed.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

You subsequently modified the office of environment commissioner, in keeping with models in other countries?

[Morgan Williams]

The only amendments that have occurred have been amendments to the language in our Resource Management Act, such as, for example, the use of the words “sustainable management”. There have been no amendments to reshape the New Zealand office on the basis of any other office anywhere else in the world. The act, as laid out in 1986, is essentially unchanged.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

You mentioned that there were currently three independent officers in New Zealand: the auditor general, the ombudsman and the commissioner of the environment.

Does the Commissioner of the Environment call upon the services of staff in the Auditor General's office?

[Morgan Williams]

No, I have a completely independent staff currently of 19. We're a totally independent statutory entity. I have a current budget of $2.7 million.

But what I have said is that we work closely with the audit office, both in our work and in the select committees of Parliament and in terms of our respective work programs. We keep each other briefed.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. WIlliams, you stated that you advise a number of government committees.

Could you list some of these committee for us?

[Morgan Williams]

The main committee we work with currently is the Local Government and Environment Committee. We have also acted as an adviser, on occasion, to the Primary Production Committee.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

What is the particular field of expertise of your 19 employees?