Evidence of meeting #45 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was role.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Morgan Williams  Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment for New Zealand
Dyane Adam  Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual
Roberta Santi  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Mr. Williams, do you have the power to conduct what some might call a value-for-money audit? Let's say, theoretically, there were a change in government in New Zealand, and an incoming government began asserting that the previous government's expenditures in the environmental field did not, for example, meet their so-called value-for-money tests. Are you in a position to speak freely and publicly about that?

For example, are you able to say, if there were such a change in government in New Zealand, “Hold on a second here. In fact I have the real numbers. I have evidence-based analyses here that tell us whether it did or did not meet value-for-money propositions.”

4:05 p.m.

Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment for New Zealand

Morgan Williams

I don't know exactly how you construct those, but what I'll say is that we've done a number of pieces of essentially audit work that look at where you're investing, where you're investing in research, and the way different governments have invested.

For example, the team led a piece of work in 2001-02 looking at New Zealand's journey from Rio to Johannesburg. If you go online, you'll find it's called Creating our future: Sustainable development for New Zealand. That piece of work in fact laid out very clearly the differences in environmental sustainability thinking and investment among the different governments. We in fact have a table in there that actually shows the different approaches of the different administrations. So it's quite clear that we looked at the investment framework, not perhaps as strictly a value-for-money audit, but to see where the investment and the intent are going.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Finally, Mr. Williams, from an international perspective—because you're probably the best placed of the witnesses here today—how much of a leadership role has Canada been playing with respect to these offices and this approach?

I think you mentioned in your remarks—help Canadians understand, if you could—the extent to which making this position real in Canada was an institutional response. It was the government's response to the Brundtland Commission and the 1992 Rio Earth Summit. To what extent is Canada responding to that summit, and to what extent have we been leading the way, working with, for example, your office and your country?

4:05 p.m.

Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment for New Zealand

Morgan Williams

My personal connections with Canada have tended to be more strongly with the Ontario office, the model of which is closer to that of the New Zealand office. I've had contact with the federal office, but the federal office has, from my perspective, from my way of operating with my team of 19, been more of an audit model. Philosophically, that's not where I and my team have been for the last 10 years. We've done some audit-type work. So that's a very clear difference.

I've been particularly interested in Europe, in the evolution of the sustainable development commissions that have been set up based on models that have been described, if you take Tony Blair's commission, as critical friends of government. Actually, although they're not parliamentary mechanisms, they've been out in front; they've been pushing hard; they've been quite critical. In some ways I think that probably, if we're really going to advance this complexity of sustainable development, those are the sorts of voices, models, and institutions in civil society that are going to make more of a difference than will those that are deeply embedded in the audit system.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you, sir.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much, Mr. McGuinty.

We now go to the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Bigras, for ten minutes.

February 26th, 2007 / 4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the witnesses.

Ms. Adam, you provided us with an overview of the Commissioner's position, recalling that it was created in 1969 following a major inquiry into bilingualism and biculturalism. You stated that when the position was created, official language rights in Canada were more an ideal than a reality. You further stated that the 1988 revision was not out of step with the 1982 Charter of Rights and Freedoms which recognized language rights.

Fundamentally, the position of Commissioner of Official Languages is based on an ideal and encompasses duties that are even more important than those of the Commissioner of the Environment.

Do you foresee a day when the Commissioner of Official Languages will enjoy a lesser degree of independence and will become part of the office of the Auditor General with a view to further protecting official language? In your opinion, would that move be a step backward?

4:10 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

Dyane Adam

Before I answer that question, Mr. Bigras, let me clarify my comments. I did not say that the position of Commissioner was an ideal. At the time, while the act clearly recognized the equality of the country's two official languages, the equality of status and use of English and French, it also recognized in the same breath the need to move toward true equality. The lawmakers acknowledged the equality of the two languages, but Canadian society wasn't quite ready for that.

The position of Commissioner of Official Languages is unique and innovative. It is a truly Canadian invention. The position was further strengthened in 1988 to emphasize the promotion aspect of the job.

Do I foresee a day when the Commissioner of Official Languages would have less independence? That would be up to Parliament to decide. I don't think any one government can decide to curb the power or status of the Commissioner's office. That would be up to Parliament to decide, because it created this position and the Commissioner reports directly to Parliament. Either Parliament or Canadian society would have to change.

You are in a better position than I am to answer that question.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

In my opinion, we would be sending out a very negative message to Canadians if the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages were stripped of its independence and reduced to the status of being part of the office of the Auditor General. That's my personal opinion.

Mr. Williams, as Commissioner for the Environment in New Zealand, you serve five functions. You act as a guardian, an advocate, an auditor, an information provider and an adviser.

In a submission to the environment and sustainable development committee, Ms. Gélinas, the former Commissioner of the Environment, reminded us that in reality, the role of the Commissioner of the Environment was limited to conducting environmental audits. She compared that role to the functions of the Commissioner of Official Languages or those of the Privacy Commissioner which have investigative and advocacy components.

What emerges from this comparison is the realization that the Commissioner of the Environment has fewer powers.

In light of your myriad functions, Mr. Williams, and in spite of your role as a guardian and advocate, do you feel the office of Commissioner for the Environment in New Zealand has encroached on the political sphere?

4:10 p.m.

Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment for New Zealand

Morgan Williams

That's a complex question. But I think the point I would make is that we're 20 years old, and we've been operating under an act that amazes me in terms of its extent and breadth and powers. No Parliament in the 20 years has actually expressed concern, to the point of taking anything back into the chamber, about the work of the commission, under two commissioners. So we must have got something right in the sense of serving what the architects of this were really looking for.

I think the reason it's worked so well is that we've tended to focus very much on the forward-looking, on investigating the systems role, and on investigating the concerns of society, and less on the strict, what we would term, audit role.

Our audit office does, in fact, environmental audits. We work very closely with our audit office, and in fact, a member of my team, a senior member who's with me today, actually acts as an adviser when they're scoping their non-financial environmental orders. They clearly do that. We have no problem with overlap.

The point I'd make is that environmental sustainability is a systems process. It has deep connections with society and the economy as well as with environmental matters. There's no way we can empower many others in society unless we can actually work on a much broader canvas than the audit canvas gives us. That's not saying that the work of audit offices and the work that your federal office has done is not in fact top class; it is, absolutely. But to advance environmental sustainability, and sustainability in general, just needs a lot more scope.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

You have two minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

My question is for Ms. Adam.

What is the length of the mandate of the Commissioner of Official Languages?

4:15 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

Dyane Adam

The Commissioner has a seven-year mandate that is renewable.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

It can be renewed?

4:15 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Has your mandate been renewed?

4:15 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

Dyane Adam

In theory, the commissioner's mandate can be renewed for a period of six months, to give the government time to appoint someone new to this position. The fact remains that no commissioner has been—

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

You stated in your submission that you conduct audits. Have you ever borrowed staff from the Office of the Auditor General during the course of your mandate?

4:15 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

Dyane Adam

Yes. An auditor was on loan to my office for one year, because the auditor position in the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages was abolished by my predecessor when the program review was conducted. I reintroduced this function when I became Commissioner and naturally, I called upon the expertise of the Office of the Auditor General, which helped us set up our own language audit service.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

In other words, a technical advisor instructed you on procedure and so forth. Have you ever been at odds with the staff or with the Auditor General for encroaching on her area of expertise?

4:15 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

Dyane Adam

No, never.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Have you ever had any dealings with the Commissioner of the Environment?

4:15 p.m.

Former Commissioner of Official Languages, As an Individual

Dyane Adam

Directly, no. However, like all officers of Parliament, we know each other and have spoken on occasion.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you. There are 25 seconds remaining.