Environment Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

A number of witnesses who have come before the clean air committee from the industrial sector have been able to reduce their emissions to far below 1990 levels. Do you believe it's fair that the industrial sector, the large polluters in this country, commit as a group to going 6% below their emissions in 1990 levels by the 2008 to 2012 period?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

If only life were so simple. When you do meet with industry, it's remarkable that virtually everyone around the table acknowledges that they have reduced theirs by 50%, by 25%, by 10%, yet greenhouse gases have continued to go up.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You know why, though.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Everyone likes to blame it on the oil sands. But I look at the facts, and they suggest that only 2% or 3% of the emissions in this country are from the oil sands.

What I can say is that I think we need a comprehensive industrial strategy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, to push people to do better, to show constant improvement. I think that's important.

At the same time, I think there is a role...you have come forward, and I appreciate your counsel and advice with respect to credit for early action. I agree that has to be a part. I'm not prepared to say today how big, but I accept your notion that there should be some credit for past action.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

One of your party's greatest criticisms of the Kyoto process undertaken by the previous government was that there was not a proper assessment of the economic consequences of decisions made. We heard this even from a senior Liberal just recently in the newspapers, who said that there wasn't really a sound assessment of some of the decisions made by government.

When you recently introduced—I know you won't call it this, but it's essentially what it is—a carbon tax on cars with larger engines, the bigger polluting cars, did you have a list of which cars would be penalized by your new initiative?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I can get you the efficiency standards that will be used to establish which cars.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But can consumers go online or ask you or ask any of us—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

On the budget website and the budget hotline, there is a good deal of information available on that, but I can get you the science and the standards we used.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Have we looked at the economic impacts on the Canadian auto sector in terms of the cars that will be penalized? Has anyone in your department or in the government done an assessment of the impact of penalizing such and such a line of vehicles, some of which are made in Canada?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I do know that if you look at the fleets that are manufactured in Canada, there are some gas guzzlers built in this country. I don't hesitate to acknowledge for a moment that there is an economic cost to reducing greenhouse gases in many areas. What we want to ensure is that it's balanced and fair.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

So in fairness and balance, why did you go after the minivan, for heaven's sake? There are a few minivans made in Canada that are on your hot list, the list of cars that are going to be taxed.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We'll give you the fuel efficiency standards that we used.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Will those fuel efficiency standards be applied to some minivans that Canadians are currently purchasing in that—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You have to draw a line somewhere, and I appreciate that's always a difficult line. We'll get to the standards, and I'd welcome your input.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I just want clarity so Canadians can understand. Are there minivans that Canadians buy, that Canadians manufacture, that will be penalized under your system?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll get the numbers for you.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

So you don't know, or you know but—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I have a minivan that's in the 85, that uses ethanol, cellulosic ethanol.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, I'm sure you do, and congratulations for the purchase. The question is around—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Actually, Mr. Alcock purchased it.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Oh, Mr. Alcock purchased it. Well, we'll thank him when we see him.

I'm not one to be superstitious, but there were 13 years of Liberal government, and emissions went through the roof. There have been 13 months of your government, and I'm growing in my wariness of these numbers. What were the total cuts? I know you're going to talk about repackaging and all the rest that your government did when it came into office with climate change programs in this country.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Well, I can tell you that this year, the 2006-07 year, we'll spend more than $3 billion, which is substantially higher than has ever been spent on climate change programs. There were often differences between what was announced and what was actually expended. And those numbers were obviously reflected in estimates, supplementary estimates (A) and (B), and will be reflected in the public accounts and the budget documents, and you'll be able to see for yourself.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

So going by some of these estimates—I'm only talking about cuts now—$9 million for climate change initiatives, $39 million for the opportunities fund, $35 million cut for the ethanol expansion program, $10 million for the green energy support, close to $10 million for EnerGuide, and the cancelling of the climate change policy directorate, were those seen as initiatives that Canadians should celebrate?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No. The only one you mentioned there that falls within my own department had no financial savings. There was some reorganization done by the public service that did not yield any budget savings. I'm happy to ask my deputy to speak to it, if you'd like.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

No. Canada's commitments under the Kyoto Protocol require that we, on a specific calendar, produce a report to the United Nations and to the world body of what we have done to a certain point and what our projections are in the future to reduce our impact on the planet. Have we produced that report for the United Nations under your watch?